"Peter F." <effectivespamblock at ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:PZJMb.108$oZ6.2693 at nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
> "k p Collins" <kpaulc@[----------]earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:wGsMb.4017$q4.714 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...> > Hi Peter.
> > Whew!
> > "Peter F." <effectivespamblock at ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:dhdMb.632$Gf3.29777 at nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...> > > I should not through stone in a glass-house but this cryptic
> > > "=NEED=for Forgiveness is in-Truth", begs being held up to scrutiny.
> > The need for Forgiveness is in-Truth be-cause the only way
> > that a nervous system can direct its host organism's behavior
> > with respect to Truth is through experiencing the energy-gradient
> > that is WDB2T. Nervous systems do such via the TD E/I dynamics
> > that are reified in NDT.
> > Because WDB2T can be 'anything', locally, discerning the WDB2T
> > energy-gradient, which all available evidence substantiates is one-way,
> > from order to dis-order, overall, is to range-widely.
> > And there it is - in the necessity of ranging-widely, is the fact
> > that one will 'descend' into 'valleys' of relative dis-order.
> > And, when one behaves in accord with such, one 'makes mis-takes'.
> > And, since such is unavoidable - be-cause of the way nervous systems
> > process information - the need for Forgiveness is in-Truth.
>> Whew - I capitulate! ;-)
It's not necessary.
You and have just been sharing info, because both of us
have a 'passion' for 'climbing' toward increased understand-
When we so 'climb' we =both= gain through the energy we
expend in doing the 'climbing'.
> I will arrest my analysis because it seems that, to you,
> "forgiveness" means (*even* whilst you give it associative
> accompaniment by religious overtones) that because we
> inevitably stumble and make mistakes [I agree that nature
> has inevitable adversities in store for us, and that it has had
> exploration instigating instincts built into us] and that we
> can recover (indeed have a need to recover) from these
> mistakes/accidents/injuries by knowing the Truth about
> how our brains work.
>> But you have most certainly not convinced me that such
> cryptic, and ideocyncratically religious, writing will help
> (even just a little) to realize any of the goals of yours.
It's 'personal' with me, Peter. I've lived these decades of
'isolation', my every attempt to gain release from my 'iso-
lation' 'denied', and, when I read of Jesus, I am moved to
recognize both His Love, and His being 'denied', through
the 'lens' of my own experience.
And, in discussing it, I am denying the 'denial'.
If, having experienced what I have experienced, I Failed
to do so, I'd be a Hypicrit - one who 'moves toward'
Truth 'selectively', and, thus, not at all. Truth must be taken
Whole. That Failing, one makes 'mud pies' of one's own
If you 'wonder', it is a 'dying' - because I understand how
'knees-jerk' with respect to such. It's just that I've seen it
all with my own eyes.
And I've seen more than I've yet shared with folks.
For instance, before Jesus, there were the older
Egyptian, Chinese, Greek, and Roman traditions
of scholarship - but there was not yet Science.
Science would come only about 1500 'years' A.D.
And, when I look, I see that the scholarship that
transformed 'scholarship' into Science was actual-
ized in the passion with which legions of Monks
started writing things down in systematic ways.
It was through them - through their efforts to re-
cord, and analyze the teaching of Jesus - that the
tradition of orderly written analysis was conveyed
to students beyond the Monastaries.
Look at Da Vinci, on this hand, painting "The Last
Supper" fresco in a Monastary, and, on the other
hand, designing 'airplanes' and 'helicopters'.
And Galileo, a product of the Church's Scholasticism,
taking it one step further by Testing assumptions
And, then, came the great 'divide'.
And =nothing= that was entailed had anything to
do with Jesus - the Inquisition was nothing but
folks, either in Royal classes or 'in the church',
acting upon their 'blindly'-automated prejudices.
And, when Science rebelled against such, Jesus
became 'denied' along with the prejudice of
the men responsible, when nothing injerent was
And then 'science' substituted its own prejudice -
in a way that actually mirrored the prejudice of
'the church', routinely 'ostracizing' any who do
not accept this or that traditionally-held Belief
of 'scientific' orthodoxy.
=Throughout= all of this, the =only= thing that's
determined any of it was 'blindly'-automated
TD E/I-minimization, left uncomprehended.
And it's so Sorrow-Filled that Jesus was 'rejected'
by Science in the process, because Jesus had
nothing to do with the stuffs of the prejudice that
dictated the behaviors of folks on either 'side'.
And it's doubly-Sorrow-Filled because, when
one looks, one sees, clearly, that Jesus addressed
the very prejudice through which folks've acted so
And it was folks' passions for Jesus that actually
breathed Life into Science - as above, through
the gradual 'climbing' toward increasingly-ordered
But the most-Sorrowful thing is that, when one
looks upon events that have unfolded over the
course of the last two millenia, one sees, again,
clearly, that Jesus gave Humanity a Better Way -
The Way to lift itself up above the slaughter-pro-
ducing Prejudice that was what inflicted all of
this Tragedy upon Humanity - and it's been
'science's 'denial' of Jesus that resulted in the
unfolding of the Tragedy. I mean that, because
anyone who brings up anything that reflects Jesus
within a scientific setting, he gets 'trounced'.
But, since Jesus literally taught the whole of it,
if one 'cannot' speak of anything that reflects
Jesus, then that which 'outlaws' such speach
simultaneously 'outlaws' Humanity's lifting itself
up out of the very stuff that's Ravaged it.
You know, Peter, I've =Lived= this circumstance
because I saw that it was a matter of Honor in
Science that I Acknowledge Jesus' Priority as I
did in AoK.
I =Know= the 'rejection'. I Understand it.
And, because I do, it's fallen to me to lift Science
up out of its 'blindly'-automated Prejudice.
It is =necessary= to do so.
Humanity's Survival depends upon such.
It cannot be that one 'cannot' speak anything
that reflects Jesus - because Jesus =said it all=,
so 'outlawing' Jesus, simultaneously 'outlaws'
[If it matters to anyone, I address the 'side' of
'religion' as Forthrightly.]
It's the Prejudice that's been inherent, all around,
that's been the wellspring of the Savagery, =not=
It's a Sorrow that I've even got to point this
out to folks because it's all so obvious that
having to 'explain' it to folks [all around] discloses
that folks, all around, weren't even looking.
I'm not here, trying to 'evangelize'.
I'm discussing all of this be-cause Humanity's
Survival depends upon its stuff being comprehended.
This knee-jerking 'moving away from' Truth 'be-
cause' it reflects Jesus is an 'outlawing' of that
upon which Humanity's Survival depends, and
in which it derives.
That's why I address all of this Forthrightly in a
Science 'place', not 'because' I'm trying to impose
Belief upon anyone.
I want folks to stop behaving Savagely toward
one another, but because the only way in which
such can be accomplished [through an understanding
of how nervous systems process information]
reflects Jesus, look at what's transpired - Science,
fully-substantiated, is 'denied' by 'science - for
=decades= while, all around, there's Tragedy
unfolding that could have [and would have] been
ameliorated if 'science' had not Censored Science
'because it, necessarily, reflects Jesus.
So, I'm taking the 'fight' to its wellspring.
How many times to I have to 'moan & groan'
about how I'd rather be 'rich & famous' before
folks understand that I'm just Honoring Truth
be-cause doing so is an absolute prerequisite
of Humanity's Survival?
Jesus doesn't need 'me'.
But there's been this prejudice against anything
that reflects Jesus, and, because my work reflects
Jesus, my work, which discloses how nervous
systems process information, is being 'rejected'.
Humanity Needs what Jesus taught.
'translate' it into the Proven Neuroscience
experimental results, and Humanity still
I'm just confronting the 'knees-jerking' head-on.
It shouldn't be 'offensive' to anyone because it's
> > 'move away from' that need, and one Dictates to others that the
> > behaviors that they manifest while 'traversing the valleys of rel-
> > ative dis-order' are as 'traps' - which is a Failure to Guard Free
> > Will, and which =always= results in an acutalization, in-Truth,
> > that 'points right back to' the 'point' of such Failure.
>> I now see that "Free Will" means to you very
> nearly the same as the "real-time adaptive
> flexibility" (my phrasing) that would result from
> never having been hurt to such an extent that we
> automatically did begin to more or less chronically
> keep-on defending against (or maintaining a state of
> internal repression of) of "Primal Pain" [as per Janov].
I know that I 'carry-baggage' from my Childhood, Peter,
and I wish I could say that I "don't worry" about it, but
obviously, I do.
It's my way of handling it - acknowledging it, within my
Being while doing what needs to be done, regardless [the
'acknowledging' being always as a 'whispering' to others
that "It's OK if anything that I am is discomfiting - I
understand". It's my way of trying not to be 'slick' - of
trying not to 'deceive' folks."
My Mom and Dad brimmed-over with Love.
But it was 'Hard' - be-cause their Lives were =Hard=.
And, look, as I've explained in former posts, I'd not
have been able to do what needed to be done, had
it not been for them.
So it all worked out.
It's 'funny'. In person, when there's nothing on-the-line,
I'm just a laid-back, happy-go-lucky kind of guy.
But no one's ever taken the 'time' to find out about
that - so no one knows about it - which reminded
me, today, about your "water torture" discussion :-]
And my 'quick' [I did the analysis =long= ago] reply.
I know all about being 'held-down', 'subjected to the
drip', and being denied any escape :-]
> What I am almost certain about is that you are
> "blindly and automatically" unwilling to understand
> the far less ideal but nevertheless real, though not
> easy to realize, possibility (a possibility for many
> but not necessarily for all people) to free ourselves
> (even just partly so) from our originally automatic
> and forthwith largely unconscious efforts to suppress
> and dodge the pressure from "Pain" (i.e.
> Pain-storing/generating neurons).
That's just it, Peter, it's because I do understand
what's entailed that I've Obligation to do what
needs to be done - because, if one who does
understand doesn't do it, how, then, can folks
who don't understand do it?
I explained this in long-former posts. The Formal
beginning of what's grown into NDT derived in
my reaction, on my own behalf, of Love's being
But, when I'd found what I was looking for with
respect to my own needs, I saw that I'd Obligation
to share it with others.
So I endeavored in that way.
It's been 'hard', but, while I have 'cried-out' against
the 'burden' inherent, I've never doubted that my
decision was Correct.
Still, it is 'hard'.
I'm just a man.
When it 'hurts', I 'cry-out'.
The other thing is that I routinely speak of my own
experience in an effort to 'touch' others who have
analogous experience - to let them know that they
are not 'alone' - to let them see that there is Hope.
To let them look at this or that through the 'lens' of
my experience - it's Gift-Stuff.
One who is 'tied-in-knots' doesn't do Gift-Stuff,
You know - "Never Waste data!"
Or, perhaps, you are assuming that, "since it's
so easy" to get an article published in some Journal",
that I'm "allowing the 'excess-baggage of my
Childhood to 'dictate' to me that I not submit
any article, and that's why my work remains
All I can say in response to this view is that
I've literally been holding-on-for-dear-life
for the last two decades - often not even being
able to feed and shelter myself [despite the
fact that I'm a very-creative computer pro-
Hell, I've not even been able to get all of
my materials out of their boxes since I was
an undergraduate 30 years ago :-]
Now I'm living in a trailer that the wind
blows right through [it's getting better with
some strategic taping of the cracks], a
kitchen sink that I cannot use [so cooking
But, mostly, I'm just still exhausted by what
it was necessary for me to do while bringing
the understanding together.
Perhaps folks think it was "easy", but it was
a 'walking-through-Hell' that, literally, threatened
to take Life from me - often.
Then there's been all of the 'ridicule' - such
forces a decision upon one - to just do it, and
not be 'held-hostage' by the 'supposed-to-be's.
Then there's been all of the 'borrowing'.
Trust me, the premise that I've not tried to
win a hearing for NDT's stuff is unfounded
What it comes down to, Peter, is that, in my
work, I am, literally, lifting Humanity up above
And it's Heavy Lifting - be-cause Prejudice
fights-back, Savagely, and Relentlessly.
I'm just a man doing work in Science, but
I've had to do it while not even being able
to feed and shelter myself in any 'normal' way -
even though I'm a very-creative computer
It's never made sense that I could not find
any place where folks wanted to tap into
my unique skillset - does it?
So it's been easy to see that there's other
stuff that's been going-on.
The 'work' of Prejudice.
Confronted by such, one just continues in any
way one can.
> [I am specifically referring to a healing methodology
> that you would be best served to find out about by
> directly experiencing it and by checking out
> www.primaltherapy.com . There is another
> website www.humangivens.com but I am not sure
> that these people have as much respect for the insidious
> power of CURSES as Janov has (and has been trying
> to instill in his staff). ]
Peter, what I need is to be able to earn a Living through
the work I do, which, since it's been 'borrowed'-from
so profusely, is obviously of sufficient Value.
I've rewritten the rest. Why would I want to
revert to stuff that I've rewritten?
> We only very roughly know where some such neurons
> are located (in the amydala). And we have next to no
> precise knowledge of the circuits involved in our automatic
> and unconsciously learnt efforts to maintain control
> (AEVASIVE - or more crudely and simply put, "defensive"
> control) over these spooky (potentially disintegrative if let
> loose) conditioned-in memory states (CURSES or
> alternatively put. - again more crudely, but also IM_odd_O
> too confrontingly and confusingly - as "primal pain").
It's all been in AoK, and the refs cited in AoK,
all along, Peter.
> > > A persistent succession of water-drops (e.g.
> > > one drop falling on a the same patch of a persons
> > > skin every 5 second or so) will slowly but surely
> > > accumulate into what may be called "a slow trauma"
> > > caused by "_presence_
> > > type" adversity,
> > This's not True, Peter.
> > The 'torture' would habituate [unless the water was
> > at an abnormal temperature, or fell from a considerable
> > height.
> Don't you know that Habituation is the little/smaller
> brother of Repression :-)
No, I don't. Sounds like just another 'supposed-to-be' to me.
> Also a mere tiring, or even active silencing by
> lateral inhibition from other actention modules, of
> neurons who started to respond to a *very
> insignificant* environmental influence, IS NOT
> what I meant to illustrate by the "relentless water
> drip" scenario.
>> The "relentless water drip" scenario is an excellent
> explanatory example that you are free to make as
> true as you dare simply by adjusting the "drop
> height" to be high enough; That is, "high enough"
> for you to start eroding your AEVASIVE dodging
> of the issue at hand - at least issue being handed
> over to you from me.
>> The (my) issue being:
> The subtlety and variety of the ways that our brains tend render
> (us) selectively unconscious of physically unavoidable environmental
> of significant and persistent irritation (and/or causes of pain and
> injury) -- something which happens especially often during people's early
> childhood when we are most "self-helpless"; And, that soon after our
> immediate processing of these environmental features/influences we
> permanently store (our brains as if allow these causes to become
> "conditioned-in") and begin to 'manage the containment of' ["selectively
> Hibernate"] the the corresponding "insidiously motivational remembrances";
> That "Selective_Hibernation_Imploring_Type_Situations" tend to
> (into our brains) sources (C$U*RS#E%S - :-)) of potentially self-defeating
> focuses of actention.
>> Moreover, that, in phylogeny, environmental adversity type
> selective/evolutionary pressures of the "SHITS variety" (eventually
> significantly amplified by CURSES) in combination with simultaneously
> life-situational "Opportunity type evolutionary pressures" (including not
> yet utilized but near-by and ripe-for-the-taking niches - or "vacant lots
> within the adaptation landscape) have given rise to our supremely AEVASIVE
> ideation/attitudes/behavioural habits, personalites and cultures.
>>> > What makes it Torture is the fact that all opportunity
> > to focus convergence within one's neural energydynamics
> > has been taken away from one.
> > So the one stimulus becomes all there is with respect to
> > TD E/I-minimization, and it's so close to being 'nothing'
> > that the nervous system 'runs-wild' -> "zone of randomness",
> > AoK, Ap4.
> > I see folks doing subtle 'analogues' of this Torture to one
> > another all the 'time', BTW.
> > Anything that artificially delimits opportunity to achieve
> > TD E/I-minimization tends to do the 'same' thing.
> > It's Sorrowful that these 'analogues' of the water torture
> > are so common place.
> > Why I go on and on about the Need to Guard Free Will
> > follows from all of this.
> > Folks do the 'torture-analogues' to one another, then 'wonder
> > why' those to whom they do it behave in 'unruly' fashions.
> > Which is Sorrowfully-'hilarious', be-cause, virtually always,
> > folks who do thes 'torture analogues' are, themselves, Victims
> > and are 'just' manifesting 'Prejudice' toward the negative-'familiar'
> > that was inflicted upon them during their own Childhoods.
> > It's =not= 'genetic'.
>> Who said it was?
> > It's 'just' 'blindly'-automated TD E/I-minimization, left uncom-
> > prehended.
> > The collective 'moving away from' NDT's understanding is
> > 'just' more of the same-stuff, only, in it, there's a group-think
> > TD E/I-minimization dynamic in which it is literally, but 'sub-
> > consciously' 'agreed upon that the collective old-long-since
> > 'familiar' stuff 'will be conserved'.
> > And there it is, again - the sowing of dis-order that imposes
> > dis-order back upon folks, collectively.
> > It's Sorrowfully-'hilarious'.
> > The Children, in the Innocence of their innate Brilliance, 'rebel'
> > against such, which only augments the 'wrath' of those who
> > succumbed to such in their own Childhoods, and who, 'now',
> > via the 'blindly'-automated TD E/I-minimization that was formerly
> > coersed upon them, use their 'power' to coerse the same-stuff
> > back upon the Children.
> > Dis-order perpetuation dis-order.
>> A VERY true *generalization*. You DO have more fingers than most on the
> pulse - i.e. pulse in respect of how people are and behave (and how their
> brains work).
> > And "Woe to any who" do anything about all of this :-]
>>> > I 'move toward' Truth, period, Peter, Guarding Free Will as I do.
> > You are =Free= to 'move away from' me.
> > So is everyone else.
> > But I 'move toward' Truth, period.
>> Which aspect of Truth are you moving toward? ;-)
>> > > > I'll
> > > > back it up a bit by sharing that, when Jesus
> > > > spoke of His Being "The Vine", and folks,
> > > > "the branches", and of "pruning" stuff so that
> > > > it'd "bear good fruit", He was using a metaphor
> > > > 'familiar' to the folks to whom He was speaking,
> > > > but, look and see, probably with a 'wink' in His
> > > > eye,He was, simultaneously, addressing the
> > > > massive neural pruning that occurs within nervous
> > > > systems - structural TD E/I-minimization, through
> > > > which nervous systems that act in "the Spirit of
> > > > Truth" [Jesus] do, verifiably, "bear good fruit" :-]
> > > >
> > > > My jaw hangs down at Seeing it!
> > >
> > > Try to present your scientifically backed theoretical thinking without
> > > mixing-in such GOD(=parent)-FORSAKEN gullability. %-|
> > The stuff I've been discussing is much-more-simple, Peter.
> > Jesus' teaching is right-there to see.
> > It's not some 'pie-in-the-sky' stuff.
> > I can =See= Truth inherent.
>> How do you explain the neurological, individual-environmental, and
> phylogenetic/evolutionary basis of being a born-again Christian (or any
> other religious belief for that matter)?
I don't. None of this is in what I've been discussing
with respect to Jesus.
All I said was that, after bringing NDT forward,
I saw that Jesus had said everything that matters
~2000 years ago, and my jaw-hung-down at
I've only addressed this one thing with respect to
Jesus. I've never tried to 'explain God'.
What's been going on, Peter, is that you've
not actually read what I've posted, but, because
"Jesus" was discussed, you've cast everything
I've posted in the light of your own preconceptions
with respect to "Religion".
I've not discussed "Religion".
I've only discussed the fact that I saw that
Jesus said everything that matters ~2000
years ago - and how I am required, on my
Honor to be Forthright with respect to His
> > > Please keep on standing on your **firmly scientifically** backed
> > theoretical
> > > arguments! But stop - *for the sake of your own, hopefully in the
> > to
> > > improve, social and scientific standing* - stomping on sanctimoniously
> > > story-telling religious grounds.
> > What good is "social and scientific standing" if
> > such comes at the cost of 'moving away from'
> > Truth?
>> > None :-].
>> > If "social and scientific standing" requires one to
> > 'move away from' Truth, then "social and scientific
> > standing" is 'Badge' of Dishonor.
>> With OR WITHOUT any desire to improve your
> social/finincial and scientific standing: Why do you
> think that by "standing/stomping on sanctimoniously
> story-telling religious grounds" you are moving away
> from Truth?
Because =nothing= in what I've discussed of Jesus
is other than simple fact - both Logical and Verifiable.
So, you know, 'stomping' upon Logical and Verifiable
stuff 'moves away from' Logic and Veracity - 'moves
away from' Truth.
>> > I've worked =hard=, Peter - as a Labor of Love.
> > But I 'confess', I've never been 'good' at 'wearing the
> > mantle' of 'being right'. As a Child, it fell to me to
> > be a sort of 'shock absorber' in the midst of my
> > Family's 'heartache'.
> > I had to just do what needed to be done, without
> > getting 'puffed-up' about it [else I'd get 'cut down
> > to size' :-]
>> You having been as you just stated - a sort of shock-absorber in the midst
> of your
> family's heartache, and that you were cut down to size if you reacted
> emotionally to it (as any normal child would) - is a sad and touching
> summing up of some very formative experiences that were part of your life
> a child.
>> It is also can be a fortunate *key* into recovering from any legacy of
> unconcious motivations left by your most likely lonely handling being
> in such overloading (SHITS type) situations.
> > So I don't care about 'being right'.
> > I do care about 'moving toward' Truth, and there's
> > a double-'Difficulty' in that for me. The work has to
> > be communicated, and, when I work to accomplish
> > that, folks 'accuse' me of 'being self-seeking', which
> > inflicts upon my Being the most loathsome stuff that
> > there is in my experience.
>> This (writing stuff like this) has become a means
> by which you (and me) coping with the residues
> of SHITS (chronically kept Hibernated, hence
> unconsious, remembrances of SHITS-type stressors,
> effecting symptoms) or "primal pain" in the "Actention
> Selection System" (ASS).
>> Having CURSES in the kopf causes almost unbelievably
> many and varied AEVASIVE symptoms.
I've just Honored Truth, Peter.
Despite the 'Costs'.
>> Here's to peace, health and occasional happiness!
>> Cheers Ken,
To Peace, and occasional Happiness!
ken [k. p. collins]