"k p Collins" <kpaulc@[----------]earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:wGsMb.4017$q4.714 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Hi Peter.
>> "Peter F." <effectivespamblock at ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
> news:dhdMb.632$Gf3.29777 at nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...> > I should not through stone in a glass-house but this cryptic statement,
> > "=NEED=for Forgiveness is in-Truth", begs being held up to scrutiny.
>> The need for Forgiveness is in-Truth be-cause the only way
> that a nervous system can direct its host organism's behavior
> with respect to Truth is through experiencing the energy-gradient
> that is WDB2T. Nervous systems do such via the TD E/I dynamics
> that are reified in NDT.
>> Because WDB2T can be 'anything', locally, discerning the WDB2T
> energy-gradient, which all available evidence substantiates is one-way,
> from order to dis-order, overall, is to range-widely.
>> And there it is - in the necessity of ranging-widely, is the fact
> that one will 'descend' into 'valleys' of relative dis-order.
>> And, when one behaves in accord with such, one 'makes mis-takes'.
>> And, since such is unavoidable - be-cause of the way nervous systems
> process information - the need for Forgiveness is in-Truth.
Whew - I capitulate! ;-)
I will arrest my analysis because it seems that, to you, "forgiveness" means
(*even* whilst you give it associative accompaniment by religious overtones)
that because we inevitably stumble and make mistakes [I agree that nature
has inevitable adversities in store for us, and that it has had
exploration instigating instincts built into us] and that we can recover
(indeed have a
need to recover) from these mistakes/accidents/injuries by knowing the Truth
about how our brains work.
But you have most certainly not convinced me that such cryptic, and
ideocyncratically religious, writing will help (even just a little) to
realize any of the goals of yours.
> 'move away from' that need, and one Dictates to others that the
> behaviors that they manifest while 'traversing the valleys of rel-
> ative dis-order' are as 'traps' - which is a Failure to Guard Free
> Will, and which =always= results in an acutalization, in-Truth,
> that 'points right back to' the 'point' of such Failure.
I now see that "Free Will" means to you very nearly the same as the
flexibility" (my phrasing) that would result from never having been hurt to
extent that we automatically did begin to more or less chronically keep-on
defending against (or maintaining a state of internal repression of) of
"Primal Pain" [as per Janov].
What I am almost certain about is that you are "blindly and automatically"
unwilling to understand the far less ideal but nevertheless real, though not
easy to realize, possibility (a possibility for many but not necessarily for
all people) to free ourselves (even just partly so) from our originally
automatic and forthwith largely unconscious efforts to suppress and dodge
the pressure from "Pain" (i.e. Pain-storing/generating neurons).
[I am specifically referring to a healing methodology that you would be best
served to find out about by directly experiencing it and by checking out
www.primaltherapy.com . There is another website www.humangivens.com but I
am not sure that these people have as much respect for the insidious power
of CURSES as Janov has (and has been trying to instill in his staff). ]
We only very roughly know where some such neurons are located (in the
amydala). And we have next to no precise knowledge of the circuits involved
in our automatic and unconsciously learnt efforts to maintain control
(AEVASIVE - or more crudely and simply put, "defensive" control) over these
spooky (potentially disintegrative if let loose) conditioned-in memory
states (CURSES or alternatively put. - again more crudely, but also IM_odd_O
too confrontingly and confusingly - as "primal pain").
But we already know enough to talk about "it" and do something about "it".
Repression of pain (more or less AEVASIVE handling of CURSES) binds
brain-resources that could be used for being alive in a richer/deeper and
CURSES (and its/their insidious motivational charge) will start to be
dispelled by as far as possible
through direct inner re-experience, followed by direct inner re-integration
(different storage) with different previously not available or accessible
circuits forthwith brought on-line to achieve a new and very much more
precise and direct inhibitory feedback onto the in the amygdala and
elsewhere located "neural storers and accumulaters" of originally
> > Moreover, by adding "is in Truth" you appear to legitimize *a denial* of
> > common reality (and fact) that human needs are frequently denied to the
> > degree of threatening to cause overwhelming pain; including very
> > and relatively gently so -- similar to "water-drop torture".
> > N.B.
> > A persistent succession of water-drops (e.g. one drop falling on a the
> > patch of a persons skin every 5 second or so) will slowly but surely
> > accumulate into what may be called "a slow trauma" caused by "_presence_
> > type" adversity,
>> This's not True, Peter.
>> The 'torture' would habituate [unless the water was
> at an abnormal temperature, or fell from a considerable
>Don't you know that Habituation is the little/smaller brother of Repression
Also a mere tiring, or even active silencing by lateral inhibition from
other actention modules, of neurons who started to respond to a *very
insignificant* environmental influence, IS NOT what I meant to illustrate by
the "relentless water drip" scenario.
The "relentless water drip" scenario is an excellent explanatory example
that you are free to make as true as you dare simply by adjusting the "drop
height" to be high enough; That is, "high enough" for you to start eroding
your AEVASIVE dodging of the issue at hand - at least issue being handed
over to you from me.
The (my) issue being:
The subtlety and variety of the ways that our brains tend render themselves
(us) selectively unconscious of physically unavoidable environmental causes
of significant and persistent irritation (and/or causes of pain and
injury) -- something which happens especially often during people's early
childhood when we are most "self-helpless"; And, that soon after our brains
immediate processing of these environmental features/influences we
permanently store (our brains as if allow these causes to become
"conditioned-in") and begin to 'manage the containment of' ["selectively
Hibernate"] the the corresponding "insidiously motivational remembrances";
That "Selective_Hibernation_Imploring_Type_Situations" tend to condition-in
(into our brains) sources (C$U*RS#E%S - :-)) of potentially self-defeating
focuses of actention.
Moreover, that, in phylogeny, environmental adversity type
selective/evolutionary pressures of the "SHITS variety" (eventually
significantly amplified by CURSES) in combination with simultaneously
life-situational "Opportunity type evolutionary pressures" (including not
yet utilized but near-by and ripe-for-the-taking niches - or "vacant lots
within the adaptation landscape) have given rise to our supremely AEVASIVE
ideation/attitudes/behavioural habits, personalites and cultures.
> What makes it Torture is the fact that all opportunity
> to focus convergence within one's neural energydynamics
> has been taken away from one.
>> So the one stimulus becomes all there is with respect to
> TD E/I-minimization, and it's so close to being 'nothing'
> that the nervous system 'runs-wild' -> "zone of randomness",
> AoK, Ap4.
>> I see folks doing subtle 'analogues' of this Torture to one
> another all the 'time', BTW.
>> Anything that artificially delimits opportunity to achieve
> TD E/I-minimization tends to do the 'same' thing.
>> It's Sorrowful that these 'analogues' of the water torture
> are so common place.
>> Why I go on and on about the Need to Guard Free Will
> follows from all of this.
>> Folks do the 'torture-analogues' to one another, then 'wonder
> why' those to whom they do it behave in 'unruly' fashions.
>> Which is Sorrowfully-'hilarious', be-cause, virtually always,
> folks who do thes 'torture analogues' are, themselves, Victims
> and are 'just' manifesting 'Prejudice' toward the negative-'familiar'
> that was inflicted upon them during their own Childhoods.
>> It's =not= 'genetic'.
Who said it was?
>> It's 'just' 'blindly'-automated TD E/I-minimization, left uncom-
>> The collective 'moving away from' NDT's understanding is
> 'just' more of the same-stuff, only, in it, there's a group-think
> TD E/I-minimization dynamic in which it is literally, but 'sub-
> consciously' 'agreed upon that the collective old-long-since
> 'familiar' stuff 'will be conserved'.
>> And there it is, again - the sowing of dis-order that imposes
> dis-order back upon folks, collectively.
>> It's Sorrowfully-'hilarious'.
>> The Children, in the Innocence of their innate Brilliance, 'rebel'
> against such, which only augments the 'wrath' of those who
> succumbed to such in their own Childhoods, and who, 'now',
> via the 'blindly'-automated TD E/I-minimization that was formerly
> coersed upon them, use their 'power' to coerse the same-stuff
> back upon the Children.
>> Dis-order perpetuation dis-order.
A VERY true *generalization*. You DO have more fingers than most on the
pulse - i.e. pulse in respect of how people are and behave (and how their
>> And "Woe to any who" do anything about all of this :-]
> I 'move toward' Truth, period, Peter, Guarding Free Will as I do.
>> You are =Free= to 'move away from' me.
>> So is everyone else.
>> But I 'move toward' Truth, period.
Which aspect of Truth are you moving toward? ;-)
> > > I'll
> > > back it up a bit by sharing that, when Jesus
> > > spoke of His Being "The Vine", and folks,
> > > "the branches", and of "pruning" stuff so that
> > > it'd "bear good fruit", He was using a metaphor
> > > 'familiar' to the folks to whom He was speaking,
> > > but, look and see, probably with a 'wink' in His
> > > eye,He was, simultaneously, addressing the
> > > massive neural pruning that occurs within nervous
> > > systems - structural TD E/I-minimization, through
> > > which nervous systems that act in "the Spirit of
> > > Truth" [Jesus] do, verifiably, "bear good fruit" :-]
> > >
> > > My jaw hangs down at Seeing it!
> > Try to present your scientifically backed theoretical thinking without
> > mixing-in such GOD(=parent)-FORSAKEN gullability. %-|
>> The stuff I've been discussing is much-more-simple, Peter.
>> Jesus' teaching is right-there to see.
>> It's not some 'pie-in-the-sky' stuff.
>> I can =See= Truth inherent.
How do you explain the neurological, individual-environmental, and
phylogenetic/evolutionary basis of being a born-again Christian (or any
other religious belief for that matter)?
> > Please keep on standing on your **firmly scientifically** backed
> > arguments! But stop - *for the sake of your own, hopefully in the future
> > improve, social and scientific standing* - stomping on sanctimoniously
> > story-telling religious grounds.
>> What good is "social and scientific standing" if
> such comes at the cost of 'moving away from'
> None :-].
> If "social and scientific standing" requires one to
> 'move away from' Truth, then "social and scientific
> standing" is 'Badge' of Dishonor.
With OR WITHOUT any desire to improve your social/finincial and scientific
standing: Why do you think that by "standing/stomping on sanctimoniously
story-telling religious grounds" you are moving away from Truth?
> I've worked =hard=, Peter - as a Labor of Love.
>> But I 'confess', I've never been 'good' at 'wearing the
> mantle' of 'being right'. As a Child, it fell to me to
> be a sort of 'shock absorber' in the midst of my
> Family's 'heartache'.
>> I had to just do what needed to be done, without
> getting 'puffed-up' about it [else I'd get 'cut down
> to size' :-]
You having been as you just stated - a sort of shock-absorber in the midst
family's heartache, and that you were cut down to size if you reacted
emotionally to it (as any normal child would) - is a sad and touching
summing up of some very formative experiences that were part of your life as
It is also can be a fortunate *key* into recovering from any legacy of
unconcious motivations left by your most likely lonely handling being caught
in such overloading (SHITS type) situations.
>> So I don't care about 'being right'.
>> I do care about 'moving toward' Truth, and there's
> a double-'Difficulty' in that for me. The work has to
> be communicated, and, when I work to accomplish
> that, folks 'accuse' me of 'being self-seeking', which
> inflicts upon my Being the most loathsome stuff that
> there is in my experience.
This (writing stuff like this) has become a means by which you (and me)
coping with the residues of SHITS (chronically kept Hibernated, hence
unconsious, remembrances of SHITS-type stressors, effecting symptoms) or
"primal pain" in the "Actention Selection System" (ASS).
Having CURSES in the kopf causes almost unbelievably many and varied
Here's to peace, health and occasional happiness!