"Peter F." <effectivespamblock at ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:dhdMb.632$Gf3.29777 at nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
>> "k p Collins" <kpaulc@[----------]earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:PL7Mb.3308$i4.1328 at newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...> > And, while I'm discussing the way that the
> > =NEED= for Forgiveness is in-Truth,
>> I should not through stone in a glass-house but this cryptic statement,
> "=NEED=for Forgiveness is in-Truth", begs being held up to scrutiny.
The need for Forgiveness is in-Truth be-cause the only way
that a nervous system can direct its host organism's behavior
with respect to Truth is through experiencing the energy-gradient
that is WDB2T. Nervous systems do such via the TD E/I dynamics
that are reified in NDT.
Because WDB2T can be 'anything', locally, discerning the WDB2T
energy-gradient, which all available evidence substantiates is one-way,
from order to dis-order, overall, is to range-widely.
And there it is - in the necessity of ranging-widely, is the fact
that one will 'descend' into 'valleys' of relative dis-order.
And, when one behaves in accord with such, one 'makes mis-takes'.
And, since such is unavoidable - be-cause of the way nervous systems
process information - the need for Forgiveness is in-Truth.
'move away from' that need, and one Dictates to others that the
behaviors that they manifest while 'traversing the valleys of rel-
ative dis-order' are as 'traps' - which is a Failure to Guard Free
Will, and which =always= results in an acutalization, in-Truth,
that 'points right back to' the 'point' of such Failure.
So the Need to Forgive is not some mamby-pamby 'guilt-ridden'
stuff, as you contend, below, but 'just' Logic.
Dis-order happens, but Forgiveness optimally handles dis-order,
instead of launching energydynamics that, in turn, impose dis-order
back upon one's self.
It's not 'business as usual', in which it is 'feared' that, if Certain-
'Retribution' is not carried-out, offenders [Criminals] will rampage.
One who Forgives =doesn't= 'do nothing'.
One who Forgives understands how nervous systems process
information, and, instead of Illogically imposing dis-order upon
one's self, one who Forgives teaches an 'offender' how nervous
systems process information.
The 'sentence' consists of working through the Learning inherent.
Then, don't 'worry' about the 'offender'. Once he understands how
and why nervous systems process information via 'blindly'-automated
TD E/I-minimization, he'll have =many= better things to do.
Most-likely, he'll 'burn-rubber' in his 'moving toward' Truth.
There's no 'magic' in any of this.
All of the 'rewards' are built right into the Biology.
The thing that precipitated the 'offender's 'crime' was that Society
was, itself, a Victim of absence-of-understanding, and, in that
'state' of 'absence', Failed to give the Child who floundered with-
in dis-order reliable means to achieve TD E/I-minimization.
Give Children =this=, and they'll 'burn-rubber' in their 'moving
So it's not 'mamby-pamby'.
It's 'just' Logic, fine and True.
And it's what I've been talking about whenever I've addressed
the Needs of the Children.
> The words "need for forgiveness imply "feeling guilt" (= a fear
> of being caught-out and rejected by other people because of some hurt or
> disappointed one has caused he/she or them)]" is not a true need"; and by
> adding "is in-Truth" you furthermore imply that "the need to be forgiven"
> WOULD be understood to be a real and important human need IF one knows
> enough about human nature; something which is of course a blatant fallacy.
>> Moreover, by adding "is in Truth" you appear to legitimize *a denial* of
> common reality (and fact) that human needs are frequently denied to the
> degree of threatening to cause overwhelming pain; including very gradually
> and relatively gently so -- similar to "water-drop torture".
> A persistent succession of water-drops (e.g. one drop falling on a the
> patch of a persons skin every 5 second or so) will slowly but surely
> accumulate into what may be called "a slow trauma" caused by "_presence_
> type" adversity,
This's not True, Peter.
The 'torture' would habituate [unless the water was
at an abnormal temperature, or fell from a considerable
What makes it Torture is the fact that all opportunity
to focus convergence within one's neural energydynamics
has been taken away from one.
So the one stimulus becomes all there is with respect to
TD E/I-minimization, and it's so close to being 'nothing'
that the nervous system 'runs-wild' -> "zone of randomness",
I see folks doing subtle 'analogues' of this Torture to one
another all the 'time', BTW.
Anything that artificially delimits opportunity to achieve
TD E/I-minimization tends to do the 'same' thing.
It's Sorrowful that these 'analogues' of the water torture
are so common place.
Why I go on and on about the Need to Guard Free Will
follows from all of this.
Folks do the 'torture-analogues' to one another, then 'wonder
why' those to whom they do it behave in 'unruly' fashions.
Which is Sorrowfully-'hilarious', be-cause, virtually always,
folks who do thes 'torture analogues' are, themselves, Victims
and are 'just' manifesting 'Prejudice' toward the negative-'familiar'
that was inflicted upon them during their own Childhoods.
It's =not= 'genetic'.
It's 'just' 'blindly'-automated TD E/I-minimization, left uncom-
The collective 'moving away from' NDT's understanding is
'just' more of the same-stuff, only, in it, there's a group-think
TD E/I-minimization dynamic in which it is literally, but 'sub-
consciously' 'agreed upon that the collective old-long-since
'familiar' stuff 'will be conserved'.
And there it is, again - the sowing of dis-order that imposes
dis-order back upon folks, collectively.
The Children, in the Innocence of their innate Brilliance, 'rebel'
against such, which only augments the 'wrath' of those who
succumbed to such in their own Childhoods, and who, 'now',
via the 'blindly'-automated TD E/I-minimization that was formerly
coersed upon them, use their 'power' to coerse the same-stuff
back upon the Children.
Dis-order perpetuation dis-order.
And "Woe to any who" do anything about all of this :-]
> WHEREAS an *at least as commonly* occurring subcategory of
> "slow trauma" is caused by a likewise on-the-way to become overwhelmingly
> painful unless "selectively Hibernated" environmentally caused *absence
> type* adversity: E.g., a young and developing individual's "human
> environment" (with or without parents) may be chronically lacking in such
> way that it deprives him or her of validating and positively stimulating
> emotional interactions and/or is characterized by a chronic lack of
> 'psychophysical stimulation and reassurance' in the form of loving
> (=appropriate qualities and quantities of) touch.
>> [So be more cautious about writing your religiously inspired/interpreted
I 'move toward' Truth, period, Peter, Guarding Free Will as I do.
You are =Free= to 'move away from' me.
So is everyone else.
But I 'move toward' Truth, period.
>> > I'll
> > back it up a bit by sharing that, when Jesus
> > spoke of His Being "The Vine", and folks,
> > "the branches", and of "pruning" stuff so that
> > it'd "bear good fruit", He was using a metaphor
> > 'familiar' to the folks to whom He was speaking,
> > but, look and see, probably with a 'wink' in His
> > eye,He was, simultaneously, addressing the
> > massive neural pruning that occurs within nervous
> > systems - structural TD E/I-minimization, through
> > which nervous systems that act in "the Spirit of
> > Truth" [Jesus] do, verifiably, "bear good fruit" :-]
> > My jaw hangs down at Seeing it!
>> Try to present your scientifically backed theoretical thinking without
> mixing-in such GOD(=parent)-FORSAKEN gullability. %-|
The stuff I've been discussing is much-more-simple, Peter.
Jesus' teaching is right-there to see.
It's not some 'pie-in-the-sky' stuff.
I can =See= Truth inherent.
>> N.B. Was not screaming nor joking, just emphasizing.:-)
> Please keep on standing on your **firmly scientifically** backed
> arguments! But stop - *for the sake of your own, hopefully in the future
> improve, social and scientific standing* - stomping on sanctimoniously
> story-telling religious grounds.
What good is "social and scientific standing" if
such comes at the cost of 'moving away from'
If "social and scientific standing" requires one to
'move away from' Truth, then "social and scientific
standing" is 'Badge' of Dishonor.
I've never been big on 'Badges' - of any sort.
I'll take Truth.
It's all I Need.
So, I'll be Killed for refusing to 'move away from'
Truth - so what?
To 'live' without Truth is 'Death', itself.
>> > When Jesus said [paraphrase] "It's not what
> > goes in you from without that declares your
> > heart, but what comes out of you", He was
> > addressing [Predicting] the transformation
> > of Humanity that is right-there in the nervous
> > system dynamics that I've been discussing -
> > in the way that prefrontal cortex is capable of
> > overriding the lower-'level' TD E/I-minimiz-
> > ation mechanisms. [This one's on the "really"
> > 'side' of 'Difficult'.]
>> Whenever *anyone* instinctively and/or insightfully states something that
> accords with human nature and psychology (indeed that harmonizes with how
> our brains work and how we evolved), I would expect that it also matches
> your interpretation of "brain-energy dynamics".
It's so, but that's the heart of it all, isn't it?
> That is, unless I am shamefully wrong about how LARGELY RIGHT you are! :-}
I've worked =hard=, Peter - as a Labor of Love.
But I 'confess', I've never been 'good' at 'wearing the
mantle' of 'being right'. As a Child, it fell to me to
be a sort of 'shock absorber' in the midst of my
I had to just do what needed to be done, without
getting 'puffed-up' about it [else I'd get 'cut down
to size' :-]
So I don't care about 'being right'.
I do care about 'moving toward' Truth, and there's
a double-'Difficulty' in that for me. The work has to
be communicated, and, when I work to accomplish
that, folks 'accuse' me of 'being self-seeking', which
inflicts upon my Being the most loathsome stuff that
there is in my experience.
So I'm just wanting folks to get-it while I still have
something left with which to actually Live my own Life.
My 'heart' is with the Children - with the Future - with
Humanity, and against all that Ravages any of these.
The rest doesn't matter to me because I've been
'standing on my own two feet' since before I could
I don't care about 'being right'.
I care about the fact that folks're Murdering their
I saw that I could do something about that.
I'm doing it.
>>>> > Forgive me, Peter, for discussing this stuff
> > in a reply to a post of yours - you've expressed
> > 'discomfort' with such in the past. But I want
> > you to see whence "kindness" comes.
>> All *I* am doing, in one way or another, is to point out that, and how, we
> are creatures that evolved to have, and *to more often than not USE*, a
> capacity for becoming and being selectively and persistently unconscious;
> And that because we do, we tend to perpetuate lies, to ourselves, about
> ourselves, and about the world we live in.
It's 'just' Truth, Peter.
I 'move toward' Truth.
>> I call this capacity (and understand it as) AEVASIVE; and the symptoms of
> being used, I also call AEVASIVE. (Etcetera...).
>> Apropos which: One of the greatest scientific ironies of all is (IMO) the
> 'con_trast' between the AEVASIVE minds of most brain-scientists and what
> they are supposed to explain.
> (BTW, Antonio Damasio's mind is one of only a few, but to me most
> agreeable, excEPTions)
>> It is as you, Ken, often write (to the effect of): "It is (sadly)
One's 'movement toward' Truth is, quite often, Hilarious,
for, when one 'moves toward' Truth, one 'traverses' the
'valleys' of dis-order, before one is able to 'climb' WDB2T.
Seeing the next 'place' to 'climb' from the 'hill-top'
to which one has 'climbed'.
Giving up that 'height' to 'descend', again, into
dis-order, in order to reach the next 'climbing'.
One can 'fly', sometimes, if the 'valleys' of dis-order
have already been explored, but, most ofter, I prefer
to slog-through the 'traverse' - because there's always
this or that remaining to be experienced in the 'valleys'.
It's why I went back to before 1900 in Tapered
But it's always Hilarious to be 'down-there' in the
And it's especially so to folks who ensconce themselves
upon this or that 'hill-top', refusing to 'come-down', so
that they can, thenn, 'climb' higher.
> > I'm not actually writing this "to you". I'm
> > writing it for all who'll read this [same way
> > I write everything I post].
>> I am writing this *most of all to you*.
> And I do so in the hope that you take only healthy and helpful offence to
> offering you a hopeless but wholesome Holism -- however one without much
> an AEVASIVE loophole left to escape through. %-)
I'm Sorry, Peter.
You see, I've explored the 'valleys' of dis-order.
And, everywhere I've looked, there is Jesus, beckoning me,
And I see Truth in-it.
I Accept any 'cost' inherent.
Honestly, such 'costs' are one of the ways through
which I can also see my Progress :-]
ken, [k. p. collins]