One [or more - I've started this reply to do one thing,
but might find something else that can use a 'tweak]
CLARIFICATION[s] added below.
"k p Collins" <kpaulc@[----------]earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:WM9Lb.16114$6B.5669 at newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Hi Dag,
>> "Dag Stenberg" <dag.stenberg at nospam.helsinki.fi.invalid> wrote in message
> news:bth7nq$bjm$1 at oravannahka.helsinki.fi...> > k p Collins <kpaulc@[----------]earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > "yan king yin" <y.k.y at lycos.com> wrote in message
> > > news:72de81ae.0401060226.67da0596 at posting.google.com...> > >> Neuropeptides (when they're located at the pre-synapse) are usually
> > >> secreted after intense stimulation such as tetanic trains. ...
> > >
> > > There's an easy first-test with respect to this question - assay
> > > peptide concentrations before and after episodes of sleeping
> > > consciousness [because, if your hypothesis is valid, then the
> > > 'catching-up' would be most-easily handled during sleeping-
> > > consciousness. And, since it's easy to look at before-and-
> > > after-sleep peptide concentrations [well, relatively-easy, all
> > > things considered], checking that out would be a good first
> > > 'step' to take with respect to your hypothesis.
> > Ken, do you mean "sleep" by "sleeping consciousness"? Or do you mean
> > "REM sleep"? Or do you mean "across the sleep-wake cycle"?
>> I was refering to looking for a difference before and after =any= sleep.
>> And I was discussing with specific respect to the possibility that,
> if peptides play a role in "information overload", then it's probable
> that that would constitute a sort of 'workload queing' with respect
> to processing that occurs during sleep - that the "information overload",
> somehow 'represented' in the formation of a 'peptide-response' to
> "information overload", would actually get sorted-out during sleep.
>> As I've discussed in the past, it's my position that a lot of this sort
> of thing does happen during sleep - with respect to "experiential total"
> cross-correlation, which is absolutely-necessary with respect to
> maintaining 'normal', unified waking-consciousness - simply be-
> cause, during waking-consciousness, one's neural activation is
> necessarily [more or less] specifically-correlated to one's then-
> occurring experience, but cross-experiential-total cross-correlation
> of each 'day's new experience is =absolutely-necessary= if a
> unified consciousness is, in fact, to be maintained.
>> As a Programmer, it's easy for me to see that the sleep cycle's
> variable-duration "staging" constitutes a mechanism that is perfectly-
> suited to 'walking' one's experiential-total [the totality of one's
> 'memory'] and cross-correlating ['consolidating'] the day's ex-
> perience with respect to all of one's experience.
>> I think this is why sleep is necessary, and is why we do, in fact,
>> It's be-cause we cannot keep everything we've ever experienced
> in-mind during waking-consciousness. That would be so 'distracting'
> that it would be anti-survival.
>> But it's absolutely necessary that the experiential-total
It's because this whole-experiential-total cross-correlation, that can
only occur during the special "supersystem configuration" [AoK, Ap5]
that is "sleeping-consciosness", does, in fact, occur during sleeping-
consciousness, that the whole of one's experiential total is, in fact,
more or less [see below] 'present' 'within' ['underneath'] this or that
'momentary' waking-consciousness information-processing.
[The "more or less" qualifier is necessary because these dynamics
occur as a function of the 'level' at which the "volitional diminishing-
returns decision" threshold [AoK, Ap7] is 'set'. That is, one can
volitionally 'choose' the degree of experiential-total cross-correlation
that one wishes to achieve. Hence, the "more or less", in the paragraph
above. In many ways, the 'passion' that's evident in the way I endeavor
to communicate NDT's understanding derives in seeing how much of
the harm that folks experience derives in folks' "volitional diminishing
returns decision" thresholds being 'set too low' - which results in commen-
surately-less of this experiential total cross-correlation. When I 'jump
up and down', it's usually the case that I'm working to give folks'
"diminishing returns decision" thresholds a little 'lifting-up' - which, for
those who grasp the 'moment', is a 'Gift' of being able to Think more-
deeply. I Love folks in that way. But folks are Free to Choose with
respect to such. It's be-cause I've been aware of all of this all along
that I, long ago, called myself to task with respect to the Necessity
of Guarding Free WIll. I do. It's not 'manipulation', because folks
are Free to Choose. For those who do so Choose, it's about the
best Gift that can be received. It literally is a Gift of being able to
'move toward' Truth - to See Truth, ever-more-clearly. I Love folks
in that way. Learned such from Jesus.]
>> So, we sleep, and the very-active 'states' of sleeping-consciousness,
> with their periodic cycling, in which cycles grow shorter as the
> overall sleep 'cycle' procedes, is flat-out a 'picture' of computerized
> database "reorganizations" [that, BTW, occur for the very 'same' reason,
> only with respect to shortening data pointer chains that have grown
> overly-long, or [through multiple deletions, restores, modifications,
> overly-convoluted, which can greatly impact database performance.
>> The computer 'consolidation' ["reorganization"] process occurs in a
> non-information-content-relevant way that's analogous to the informa-
> tion-content relevant way that whole-experiential-total 'consolidation'
> occurs within nervous systems during sleep.
One does a crude version of this stuff whenever one "defragments" the
hard disk on one's computer. [I always do defrags in a stand-alone way
[while not, otherwise, using my computer], because I like to think about
what my computer is doing in this 'sleep state' :-]
BTW, any 'AI' system =must= have an analogue of "sleep" - for the
reasons discussed above. Doing it 'in the background' unacceptably
degrades 'foreground' processing in a real-AI thing. [Forground
processing =must= grasp as much as the 3-D energydynamics that
are occurring in it's experiential environment as is possible - if it is,
in fact, to approach real-AI. I wish Microsoft[tm] would learn this, and
not ab-use 'foreground' processing by imposing so much 'background'
processing upon it in their 'OS' engineering. Where they see 'unused
clock cycles', I see only the information-processing capabilities of my
PC, and I want to use them for what I want to do, not what someone
else wants to do with them. Windows XP[tm] is 'background' processing
That's all for this clarification.
k. p. collins
>> It was out of my awareness of these sleeping-consciousness whole-
> experiential-total 'consolidation' dynamics that I suggested that the
> poster look for a sleep-correlated differential.
>> More below.
> > Anyway, there are publications since 1909 attempting to assay protein or
> > peptide concentrations after prolonged waking in comparison with the
> > well-slept state, or differences between sleep and waking. Of course, in
> > 1909 they could not identify the peptides, but they found that a
> > protein-based substance accumulated in the brains of sleep-deprived
> > animals would induce sleep when infused into the cerebroventricular
> > system of other animals. About 1975, the accumulation of muramyl peptide
> > during prolonged waking was observed. It was later found to relate to
> > and cause the production of interleukin-1 during waking, and indeed it
> > has been found that prolonged waking induces the transcription by
> > the interleukine-1 gene.
> > Several other genes are transcribed more intensely during waking than
> > during sleep. It follows that their gene products (proteins eventually
> > broken down to peptides, which may be directly involved in transmission
> > more indirectly, by affecting the regulation of cellular functions) may
> > vary with the sleep-wake state. Most of these genes are immediate early
> > or gene products related to synaptic plasticity or cellular metabolism.
> > very few genes are transcribed more during sleep.
> > Thoughts about peptides related to sleep homeostasis can be divided into
> > the depletion hypotheses and the accumulation hypotheses. Does waking
> > activity deplete something useful and necessary, or does it accumulated
> > harmful (the hypnotoxin theory)?
> > If levels of a peptide increases during wakefulness, it might mean that
> its use
> > is diminished, or alternatively, that its production is increased. This
> > latter may be due to increased gene transctiption, and may be a
> > compensatory phenomenon because of increased use. If a peptide
> > decreases during wakefulness, it might mean that it is used more and it
> > is being depleted, or that its production has simply become decreased.
> > If one samples the level during a longer period of wakefulness, one
> > see initial depletion followed by compensatorily increased production. A
> > single time point may produce misleading results. Furthermore, study
> > during spontaneously oscillating sleep-wake cycles may not reveal the
> > true dependence on wake and sleep, as there may be a delay between the
> > change in state and the concentration changes. If the delay is due to
> > changes secretion from stores in the presynaptic terminal, these
> > concentration changes are seen with short delay; if the change involves
> > gene transcription, the change occurs with a delay of hours to days, and
> > cannot be analyzed by studying spontaneous sleep-wake patterns (with a
> > cycle of 24h in humans and even less than an hour in most other
>> Thank you for this Generous sharing of your Expertise, Dag.
>> > So when Ken writes "There's an easy first-test with respect to this
> > question" it is not all that easy. In fact, a great deal of peptide
> > assay has been done during the last few decades in relation to sleep and
> > wake, and there is still no easy answer.
>> I'm sorry, but my personal experience leads me to [gently] disagree.
>> Because I'm always hard-pressed to feed and shelter myself [for decades],
> when I have the $ resources to work on my research, I do so by working
> for as long as I can - to cram as much into the ol' noggin' lab as I can
> fore allowing myself to sleep.
>> As a result, my sleep cycle gradually rotates 'around the clock'.
>> As you can imagine, because I've been at this for so long, I've become
> aware that there are several 'sub-processes' within
>> They are recognizable because they go in and out of sync, stereotypically,
> as I allow my sleep cycle to rotate 'around the clock'.
>> So I can say, with Certainty, that if you find a subject who will endure
> an analogous waking-sleeping discipline, you'll see periodic fluctuations
> that correlate to these sleep sub-processes - and because they sort of
> 'slide-over' one another [they each 'go their own way'], the correlations
> will be 'easy' to identify in pharmocological assays. [Whoops! I =don't=
> know if such studies can be done in Humans - probably not, eh? Or do
> the substances you monitor occur, say, in bodily fluids? It's
> if your work is invasive. That would mean that you'd have to force the
> 'around the clock' sleep cycle rotation upon animal subjects - which
> duces a variable that is not within my experience, because I do this stuff
> volitionally - in order to =relieve= the 'stress' with respect to
>> You know - "information overload" :-]
>> All that I've discussed was in why I responded to the prior post.
>> I wanted to get into this discussion with someone.
>> So, Thank You, Dag.
>> I'll save your informative post special, so I can have ready access
> to it when I get back to reading in Neuroscience [if I ever will].
>> I'll come over there and let your team 'wire me up' if you want to see the
> sleep-sub-process cycling that I've discussed.
>> I'm so used to it that I usually don't even pay any attention to it, other
> than knowing, from it, when it's best to go to bed [when I should go
> to bed in order to get the best-sleep that's possible].
>> [I've also done a lot of 'experiments' with respect to
> and my many diferent sleep-cycle routines. "Never waste data!" is a
> that I Live by :-]
>> Cheers, Dag,
>> ken [k. p. collins]