IUBio

Modelling the human brain by modelling its evolutionary emergence

Frans van der Walle fw.novoware at wxs.nl
Thu Feb 28 04:03:01 EST 2002


Glen M. Sizemore <gmsizemore2 at yahoo.com> wrote in berichtnieuws
3c7d691e$1_3 at news.teranews.com...
> > Perhaps this quote illustrates exactly why little progress has been
made.
> > One thing it does not contain is any hint that the notions of "mind" and
> > "information handling processes" may be scientifically worthless.
> ***********************
> FvdW: I disagree; one only should define what one is talking about.
>
> GS: This is, indeed, the view that has been propagated in psychology and
> psychology-related disciplines since the 1940s. It is also hopelessly
naive.
>
> FvdW: My definitions are: * Mind is the functionality and stored memory
> items, as implemented in the
> physical brain structure.
>
> GS: There is nothing "stored" in the brain. This is another of the great
> mis-conceptualizations afflicting behavioral neuroscience.
>
> FvdW: It can be called also: 'The Information System Man'.
>
> GS: Catchy, but really, really silly like virtually all of what you say.
>
> FvdW: * Brain is the physical object that 'houses' the mind.
>
> GS: Ummm, and why would this metaphor be useful? Does it actually
accomplish
> anything besides escaping the embarrassment of a frankly dualistic
position?
>
> FvdW: * Information System is defined as the sum of all those
> characteristics of
> that species that can be represented by some repository of abstract and
> conceptual
> information items, that is reasonably isomorph in its characteristics to
the
> real life system.
>
> GS: You're joking, right?
>
> FvdW: * Information Handling is the set of information transfer-,
storage-,
> transformation-, input- and output operations within such an Information
> System Once defined in this (or any other) way, you can use it and work
with
> it within a modelling environment.
>
> GS: Gibberish.
>
> FvdW: 'Scientifically' means 'well defined' & 'transformed via
> logical rules'.
>
> GS: Whatever "scientific" means, this is not it. What is "transformed,"
BTW?
>
> FvdW: Whether or not these notions are used in daily life in a less well
> defined
> or 'sloppy' way is irrelevant to the modeller. Language expressions are
very
> often not very
> specific nor well defined. Misunderstandings occur often; humans can
'live'
> with it because
> they can use context information for a further narrowed down
interpretation
> of these
> sloppy statements; models can not, as long as context information is not
> part of a modelling.
> Attaining that last stage is one of the goals of artificial intelligence
and
> in fact of my
> research.
>
> GS: Gibberish....but to a great extent that is irrelevant to the point I
> wanted to make in this NG. The original statement that I criticized would
be
> more or less accepted by the majority of people who talk about the brain
and
> behavior, yet it is silly. So much for our chances of elucidating the
> realtion between brain activity and behavior.
*************************
This discussion improves my knowledge of the english language. I have looked
up in Webster the word 'gibberish' and I found it to mean that I
communicate, via email, in a  'rapid, inarticulate' way that is therefore
not understood; it sounds like a 'confused gabble'. The notions 'naive' and
'silly' were already known to me.
My reply has to be short and clear then:
1    What is your definition of the notions 'mind' and 'scientific'?
2    Do I understand correctly that you see mind and brain as two completely
separate entities? Or is your opinion the other way around; what is then the
relationship between mind and brain?
3    You state that nothing is stored in the brain. What is your explanation
for remembering now what you did yesterday?

Regards, I propose to use more friendly expressions in a friendly scientific
debate. Use of 'strong' words is not very convincing of your mastery of the
subject.
Frans van der Walle





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