IUBio

Is it possible to read someone's mind?

maxwell mmmaxwell at hotmail.com
Fri May 25 18:59:57 EST 2001


yan king yin <y.k.y(at)lycos(dot)com> wrote in message news:9emgms$lj32 at imsp212.netvigator.com...
> i agree with most of your comments, so i'll just reply to some of them.
> 
> "maxwell" <mmmaxwell at hotmail.com>:
> 
> [...]
> 
> >> I gave one example where a person needs sleep after great expectations
> >> followed by disappointment:  During the "generative phase" (eg Bob
> >> thinks that he has won the lottery) the brain is "wired-up" by an
> >> additive process.  In the "eliminative phase" (Bob finds out he's made
> >> a mistake) the previous circuits have to be eliminated (which i suggest
> >> is done during (?slow-wave?) sleep).
> >
> >Seems improbable in respect to episodic memories, though there's been
> >a relation claimed between SWS and procedural (as in implicit) memory.
> 
> (If memory is an emergent property, then the distinction between episodic
> and procedural memory is artificial....

Why? On the contrary-- as soon as you argue for *emergence*-- consciousness
is _obviously_ not the same as "automatic" .

To make this perfectly clear to you, we can evoke memory in severed amphibian
limbs in a dish. This is reflexive memory.
Rats with extensive cortical ablations, to the point where they can't smell or see,
can still learn mazes. This is procedural memory.

See where this goes with "emergence" ?


  please see my other post about Edelman's theory)

I had a look, but would like to read Edelman first. Try the above for now, please.
> 
> Anyways, I am very interested to find out the neurochemical changes in
> sleep (both REM and SWS), especially re synapse reorganization.  I think
> the disappointment-sleep relation is quite real, but i dont know what to
> make of it.  I assume that "dozing off" is SWS?

No-- that would be stage 1, non-REM sleep, possibly into stage 2.
SWS would be stages 3 & 4. (REM is also a type of stage 1, but has
even greater 'paralysis' and sensory detachment than SWS, thus "paradoxical"

> 
> [...]
> 
> > I'm curious how you relate the phenomenology of altitudes to hunger.
> > Sure, there's arousal in both, but?
> 
> When you look down from a very tall building, you seem to feel something
> in your stomach, right?  That feeling is similar to feeling hungry, but
> they are quite unrelated to each other.  I guess this means that the 2
> feelings are connected to the same "emotive circuit".

Not at all. The feeling of vertigo is a top-down process-- vestibular/optical
information>>hypothalamus & brain stem>> var. efferents to enteric/myoenteric plexi, including
via vagus and also thoracic chain efferents to the gut.
Then from gut, if perceived, the rumbling.

Hunger: Both from hypothalamic chemosensors and from stretch receptors in stomach, and also olfactory, (with perhaps optical, even auditory input-- Pavlovian conditioned--sight of new food never tasted does NOT evoke hunger-- but smells may) (I'll bet you don't get hungry from food pressed on your skin, either... ;~)

Phenomenologically, as well, very different feelings.
? Presumption of  " same "emotive circuit"  "  Really ?

> 
> [...]
> 
> > Okay, but even if we were able to refine fMRI to a spatial/temporal resolution
> > as exacting as implantable arrays, how would that get us to being able to "mind > read?"
> 
> Well, you must know that an ideal gas, the molecules follow the Maxwell-
> -Boltzman distribution.  We cannot know all the positions and momentums
> of these molecules,  but that doesnt prevent the distribution law being
> verified by experiment.  Likewise, we might stimulate some neurons, and
> then determine what "thoughts" they are holding.

Not without showing that several tens or hundreds of millions of widely distributed, differentially
firing neurons constitute a particular thought, and not some other. Good luck, however.

> 
> Now Im off to sleep!

Pleasant dreams.

-maxwell
> 
> 
> 




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