Kevin Kunz wrote:
> Happy Dog wrote:
>> > I was referring to this: "effects the proprioceptors which act on reiterative patterns
> > throughout the body to information share new information" Please explain...
>> The body has an imaging system.
Evidence of this? Where does it reside and how does it interface with the outside world?
> When a challenge or a threat comes from the outside the body
> has to interpret that signal. Proprioceptors are sensitive gauges that detect the angulation
> of joints, stretch of muscle and deep pressure to the bottom of the feet.
What does this have to do with the preceding sentence? How does this "deep pressure" aid the
body in interpreting the "signal"?
> Reiterative
> patterns are established throughout the brain to share this information. On a conscious level
> it is in the sensory/ motor cortex. The cerebellum also appears to have reiterative patterns
> to interpret subconscious information. That is why I call it an information sharing system.
> The foot is to me a type of homunculi (little man) or repeated pattern.
This is so far off the mark of any understood psychological biology that I wonder if it was just
made up. Is there a any brain researchers who can make sense out of this? The foot as
homunculus?
>> > No it's not. Your statement says that the foot is a very important part of the
> > information sharing network. Compared to what? There is nothing that I'm aware of in
> > neurology that states that the foot is central to the distribution of nerve impulses.
> > Please provide a cite.
>> Well if you look at the homunculi in the sensory/motor cortex the foot has a central and
> rather large representation. Compared to the trunk which is short and not very well
> represented. Guyton's textbook defines proprioception as the angulation of joints, stretch of
> muscles and deep pressure to the bottom of the feet. I'll get you a reference but I must
> admit that definition stopped my eye. Why name the feet? Locomotion?
But no connection to diagnosing illness or healing same. This is pure misappropriation of
irrelevant facts. Again, you claim that the references which back your claims are found in
STANDARD neurology textbooks. Please show me where.
> > > Don't know that one but again it is all in the standard texts.
> >
> > This is in standard texts?: "In essence a new message such as pressure to the bottom of
> > the feet breaks up existing stress patterns and reformulates the adaptive mechanisms."
> > What standard text did you pull that from? This is Earth, right?
>> What you asked is where I get my stuff. All of it is from Tierra Firma. Sensory messages send
> a new message into the system. Because of our survival mechanism a sensory message that is of
> a certain volume must be interpreted. Thus the stress or tension pattern is altered when
> exposed to new stimuli.
You claim that this nonsense is textbook neurology. I ask "On what planet"? I still await your
reference to my post above, taken from the "standard texts".
> > > Why make claims. That is for salesmen. Research is to test the medical applications of
> > > reflexology. It is a work in progress. Jury is still out. What's your hurry?
> >
> > Why do research if there are no claims? And you DO make claims: "But then again I have
> > recently worked with a situation that may make me change my position. It had to do with
> > the "flesh eating bacteria"." You are claiming to have witnessed something. I'm in a
> > hurry to figure out what, exactly you're trying to say.
>> What I am saying is the only claim is that reflexology works in the nervous system. I am not
> making a claim in relationship to the situation of "flesh eating bacteria." It simply altered
> my perception of what reflexology could do. It was my assumption that reflexology wasn't
> particularly good with a virus and bacteria.
"works in the nervous system" to do what? Quit dancing around the issue here and state you
claims.
> My nephew came down with the "flesh eating bacteria." He was in intensive care for most of
> his 23 days in the hospital. I worked on him everyday and a lot of the time twice a day. He
> came out without an permanent damage. Was it the reflexology that made the difference? I
> don't know. But it seem to provide a lifeboat to keep him going while other things took
> effect. Two died of the same thing while he was in. I think that it deserves research.
Tooth fairies deserve research. But they are as laughable a subject as reflexology. You use
anecdotes like above to suggest that this utterly unproved and highly improbable treatment may
have contributed to a narcotizing fascitis cure and then suggest more research is needed. Why
not stand outside a different hospital every day and mutter some secret words and then note that
many people are getting better. And then suggest research into that.
hd
>>> >
> >
> > > > Reflexology has been around in one form or another for a very long time.
> > >
> > > Actually Gardiner was wrong . There is familiar wide spread reference it from about
> > > 2500 BC until Mark Anthony got in trouble with Octavian for working on Cleopatra's
> > > feet during dinner parties.
> >
> > I'm talking about very similar quack modalities from the last century. You're not aware
> > of them?
>> Sure but reflexology got it's start in the medical community. Respected doctors did it until
> the great purge.
>> >
> >
> > > > And it is very clear that it doesn't work as claimed.
> > >
> > > Again with the claims. I worked recently with the Canadian government on an ad that
> > > claimed you lost weight wearing reflexology sandals. I also gave an interview to
> > > Allure magazine on the same subject. My complaint? They said they had research and
> > > didn't produce it. I don't back claims, I back research.
> >
> > The claims are the issue. If there are no claims, why test? What are you testing FOR?
>> Look there is a potential for medical application of reflexology. I have read a number of
> studies on diabetes for instance. Diabetes is a very disabling and costly disease. There is a
> double blind test on Medline. There are several other studies as well. We have a protocol
> written up to test diabetes. I have had very good success with diabetics. Why not test? Is it
> not unethical not to test if you can help diabetics.
>> >
> >
> > > > Now, if you are saying that it does something but nobody's ever observed it in a good
> > > RCT study, kinda like the Maharishi Effect, then fine.
> > >
> > > I've been blessed with great research from all over the world. Some of it is truly
> > > exceptional.
> >
> > Then post it.
>> Try http://www.reflexology-research.com . I have published and posted for years. There are
> studies on Medline. We do a newsletter. I am teaching in Toronto next week on this very
> subject. What aren't I doing?
>> >
> >
> > > There are reasons to look at reflexology for medical applications but it
> > > won't come over night. I figure we have at least another decade to make the call.
> >
> > Maybe we could speed things up. But first what medical conditions can be diagnosed using
> > Reflexology. Any?
>> Good question. Again research is a must. I think it is curious that in problems ranging from
> diabetes to hypoglycemia you see locking of the mid tarsal joint. Muscloskeletal problems are
> fairly easy to pick up on. Heart problems, kidney problems, potential for stroke and lung
> problems are often evident in the feet.
>> There are other signs. People could be taught to look for precursors. But once you have the
> illness why would you seek a diagnosis from reflexology when a blood test or xray is more
> precise. And why fly solo. My clients are smart. They use the best of both worlds.
>> >
> >
> > > > Come back when you can claim something. In the
> > > > meantime, it stands unproven and, very likely, completely bogus.
> > >
> > > I'm ready. Where are your facts? Where are your studies? Can you refute the studies
> > > that have been done?
> >
> > YOU make the claims. YOU present the proof. That's how debate works. You new at this?
>> No, we have been presenting research for years. There are a lot of controlled studies. I
> expect to spend the rest of my life doing this. We are doing what is necessary to start
> scientific debate. There will be lots of debates of many kinds. We aren't going away.
>> >
> >
> > > > Almost ANYTHING that reduces stress in a patient helps the immune system.
> > >
> > > Agreed. But I still think reflexology has a better medical application before the
> > > virus strengthening the immune system than after when the virus has set in. But then
> > > again I have recently worked with a situation that may make me change my position. It
> > > had to do with the "flesh eating bacteria".
> >
> > That's a claim if ever I heard one...
>> Explanation above.
>> >
> >
> > > > If reflexology is just a glorified name for a nice foot massage, then OK.
> > >
> > > Why do you want a glorified foot massage instead of reflexology? Poor you. Everyone
> > > who has tried the two knows the difference.
> >
> > This is evidence? How do they know the difference? Can this be tested for in a blind
> > study?
>> Actually I think a more interesting way is to do a functional MRI study like the one recently
> done with acupuncture. That could tell the difference.
>> >
> >
> > > > But you are suggesting far greater claims.
> > >
> > > My claim is simple. Reflexology is the application of pressure to the feet and hands.
> > > This pressure has an effect on the ANS and we can prove it. The smart money is on
> > > harnessing this effect not just for health but a myriad of other things. Pressure to
> > > the feet effects the feed forward mechanism. Simple.
> >
> > Describe the "feed forward mechanism" in layman's terms.
>> When you step on an escalator that is not moving you get the sensation of movement. That is
> feed forward. It is a continuous state of readiness maintained in the muscles to keep
> continuity. We get feedback from the environment. That feedback feeds forward information
> from the brain to what is called muscle spindles. If a threat is perceived then a higher
> state of tension is called for. That information is feed forward.
>> >
> >
> > > > Nice to see you backpeddling so furiously though.
> > >
> > > That an effect of proprioception. When you are seated in a car and another car backs
> > > out and you feel in motion. That is your feed forward mechanism. What is actually
> > > happening is that I am going forward and you are perceiving that as back pedaling. In
> > > reality it is the effect produced by you going backward.
> >
> > In reality, as in Earth reality, you are backing further and further away from saying
> > things that can be proven or disproved. My questions are cogent and reasonable. Your
> > responses rely on arcane language and vague claims to make your point. And, of course,
> > the favourite of quacks everywhere, the demand that the skeptic prove them wrong.
> > erf
>> Oh quite the contrary. I think reflexology can be tested and measured in earthly terms. You
> are asking the wrong question. Reflexology is a set of techniques. Pressure to the bottom of
> the feet has been proven to alter the ANS. Now whether you can harness that effect to treat
> disease is what needs to be proven or disproved. And what will come out is that reflexology
> is not effective for everything (that's a no brainer). But if it does show that it is safe,
> effective, economical and a mechanism can be demonstrated why wouldn't you want you diabetic
> aunt to have it?
>> I knew you couldn't resist the urge to call names. But there are a lot of people who call me
> names. It is just it doesn't bother me. I believe in reflexology because I have seen it's
> effects. But coming from a scientific family that is not enough, Reflexology needs to be
> tested and retested. You have every right to replicate those tests and prove them wrong. That
> is the scientific method.
>> I am not qualified to do these tests and neither are you. I am an advocate of testing. It has
> always been our policy to report on negative as well as positive tests. It is in
> reflexology's best interest to keep it objective. And yes, it is for the public good as well.
>> Kevin Kunz
>http://www.reflexology-research.com