here is what i posted previously. there's nothing in it like you've Falsely
attributed to me
K. P. Collins
________________________________________________
the incorrect view was solidly entrenched in the literature when i was in
'grad school' in 1975-6.
i definitely had it wrong in a 'comic book' i sent out, but don't recall
when i sent it out... (i did a 'comic book' in an effort to present the
ideas in a, hopefully, curiosity-invoking format).
i'd have to dig it out and reread it, but i think had it wrong in my 1980
paper, _Why: Human Behavior_ (which was the precursor to AoK, and treating
the hippocampi as a 'recorder' was the only major error that i recall as
being(?) in that paper).
i had it right by the 'time' of my 1983 presentation at the Naval Research
Laboratory.
i'd have to check my papers to narrow it down more.
it might 'surprise' you, but i don't spend a lot of 'time' keeping track of
individuals who've 'borrowed' my work... and i'm not your 'research
assistant'. if you've a Q in Physics, which is what i've been working in for
the past decade, i'll be glad to provide refs.
i did what i had to do in Neuroscience. it's never been formally published.
i've thought more about my 'nausea' comments, the other night, and in the
past... it's 'just' a cop-out, 'dramatic' way of saying that i can say, with
certainty, that there will never be a Neuroscience paper with respect to
which:
1. i cannot redesign the experimental method, and make predictions that will
be verified.
2. or that i can demonstrate is incorrect.
by invoking the 'short-cut', 'nausea', i was just trying to convey the sense
of 'frustration' that i experience when i go in the Neuroscience stacks, see
all the disconnected stuff, know that it's all connectable, but 'there's no
use' in working to connect anything in it... because no one will listen, or
understand, anyway.
ken collins
flefever wrote in message <7n8os6$l7o at dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>...
>>Well, when DID you say the hippocampus was not for "storeing" memories
>and everybody else was saying it was. Was it in 1986? Before 1986?
>Can you ESTIMATE the date? What was the EARLIEST possible date? (i.e.
>when did you first start saying or writing this stuff?) How much
>longer DID everybody else persist in saying the hippocampus was for
>"storeing" memories? (can you name one or two of these people?)
>>F. LeFever
>>In <euMeIXA1#GA.274 at cpmsnbbsa02> "Ken Collins" <KPaulC at email.msn.com>
>writes:
>>>>beyond AoK, which was first circulated in 1986, i don't care to look
>through
>>my papers, Frank. I've preserved everything... anyone who wants to
>look can
>>see for themselves how the concepts developed.
>>>>i am certain that, when i started circulating AoK, it was as i stated
>in the
>>prior msg... to get folks in Neuroscience thinking-straight with
>respect to
>>it was one of the biggest battles i had to fight.... one doesn't
>easily
>>"forget" such, and the scars accumulated while doing it.
>>>>ken collins
>>>>F. Frank LeFever wrote in message
><7n677k$5j8 at dfw-ixnews16.ix.netcom.com>...
>>>>>>Just what was the date when you said the hippocampus doesn't store
>>>memories and everybody else said it did? (The theoretical statements
>of
>>>"the others" are publicly documented and dated; are yours?)
>>>[...]
>>>>>
_________________________________
Ken Collins wrote in message <#d0Bh$X2#GA.186 at cpmsnbbsa05>...
>groan... there's nothing in your 'Gotcha' but a little 'semantic'
>hand-waving.
>>F. Frank LeFever wrote in message
<7nole7$kr1 at dfw-ixnews16.ix.netcom.com>...
>>In <uAe3Qzy1#GA.419 at cpmsnbbsa02> "Ken Collins" <KPaulC at email.msn.com>
>>writes:
>>>>>>the literature with respect to HM is a perfect case in point. everyone
>>was
>>>saying that the hippocampi are 'involved in 'memory' formation'
>>>>>>Gotcha! You are even more dense than I thought, or exceptionally
>>dishonest.
>>ok... different 'semantics'... everyone was saying that the hippocampi are
>akin to 'organs of memory'... that that is what the hippocampi are all
>about.
>>NDT's position, which is described in AoK, Ap5 is =vastly= dissimilar from
>that.
>>>>>That is NOT what you asserted before. You claimed that back in 1975
>>eveerybody but you was saying that memories were STORED IN the
>>hippocampus.
>>i think you're misquoting me, here. i'll look back at what i posted and
>reply again.
>>>Althoough you had tto qualify tthat a bit when pressed
>>for exact dates, and admitted that you also "had it wrong" for a few
>>years after that.
>>again, i'll look back to see what i said about '1975', and reply again...
>full- knowing that, what's already on the board, despite all you're saying
>here, clarifies my position well enough.
>>>Actually, everybody else had it RIGHT, long before
>>you did: whatever the continuing controversies about the exact role of
>>the hippocampus, HM's retention of previously formed memories after his
>>bilateral hippocampectomies puutt to rest anyh nootioon tthat memories
>>were stored IN TTHE HIPPOCAMPUS. (Get it? "stored BY the hippocampus"
>>is not the same as "stored IN the hippocampus". Maybe you're thinking
>>"stored NEARBY the hippocampus"?)
>>except for the hippocampi's own 'memories', pertaining to its
>intermediate-'level' supersystem configuration dynamics, 'memories' are not
>stored in or by the hippocampi... why don't you read AoK until you get some
>glimmer of what's in it?
>>>>>By the way: stuff the pretentious plural. When we talk about (for
>>example) the marvelous function of the human eye, we do not feel the
>>need to reassure people that we know most of us have TWO eyes, and that
>>we know to write an "s" after eye if we are talking about both of
>>them... I suppose you think that important journal that began
>>publication a few years ago is called "Hippocampi"...
>>gheesh...
>>K. P. Collins
>>>>>>>>>F. Frank LeFever wrote in message
>><7ngl3c$psb at dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>...
>>>>>>>>Ah, at last, something testable. I don't have the time or the
>>>>motivation for it, but someone who would like to do a quick survey of
>>>>journals 1975-1983 can tell us how many people in this period were
>>>>saying that the hippocampus was a place where memories were stored.
>>If
>>>>textboooks were no longer saying it, this would be a sharp refutation
>>>>of Ken's prescience; if some were saying it was, I'd not take it
>>>>seriously, because textbooks are always behind the times.
>>>>>>>>I don't know when poor HM had his surgery, but I kinda think it was
>>>>before that period, and he is of course the poster boy for the case
>>>>against hippocampus being where memories "are".
>>>>>>>>Meanwhile, what on earth is Ken saying near the bottom of this
>>pathetic
>>>>history? At first, I thought he was asserting that ALL Neuroscience
>>>>papers were false; but on re-reading his two assertions, I have come
>>to
>>>>think that he is saying: "All neuroscience papers are false except
>>for
>>>>the ones that are true; and if they are true, I can find a differentt
>>>>way to get the same resultts." Maybe he'd like tto cite one of each,
>>>>and show us just exactly how he'd do both of these things (in 1.5Meg
>>or
>>>>less).
>>>>>>>>>>>>F. LeFever
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>In <esZfk4k1#GA.294 at cpmsnbbsa05> "Ken Collins" <KPaulC at email.msn.com>
>>>>writes:
>>>>>>>>>>the incorrect view was solidly entrenched in the literature when i
>>was
>>>>in
>>>>>'grad school' in 1975-6.
>>>>>>>>>>i definitely had it wrong in a 'comic book' i sent out, but don't
>>>>recall
>>>>>when i sent it out... (i did a 'comic book' in an effort to present
>>>>the
>>>>>ideas in a, hopefully, curiosity-invoking format).
>>>>>>>>>>i'd have to dig it out and reread it, but i think had it wrong in my
>>>>1980
>>>>>paper, _Why: Human Behavior_ (which was the precursor to AoK, and
>>>>treating
>>>>>the hippocampi as a 'recorder' was the only major error that i
>>recall
>>>>as
>>>>>being(?) in that paper).
>>>>>>>>>>i had it right by the 'time' of my 1983 presentation at the Naval
>>>>Research
>>>>>Laboratory.
>>>>>>>>>>i'd have to check my papers to narrow it down more.
>>>>>>>>>>it might 'surprise' you, but i don't spend a lot of 'time' keeping
>>>>track of
>>>>>individuals who've 'borrowed' my work... and i'm not your 'research
>>>>>assistant'. if you've a Q in Physics, which is what i've been
>>working
>>>>in for
>>>>>the past decade, i'll be glad to provide refs.
>>>>>>>>>>i did what i had to do in Neuroscience. it's never been formally
>>>>published.
>>>>>>>>>>i've thought more about my 'nausea' comments, the other night, and
>>in
>>>>the
>>>>>past... it's 'just' a cop-out, 'dramatic' way of saying that i can
>>>>say, with
>>>>>certainty, that there will never be a Neuroscience paper with
>>respect
>>>>to
>>>>>which:
>>>>>>>>>>1. i cannot redesign the experimental method, and make predictions
>>>>that will
>>>>>be verified.
>>>>>>>>>>2. or that i can demonstrate is incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>by invoking the 'short-cut', 'nausea', i was just trying to convey
>>the
>>>>sense
>>>>>of 'frustration' that i experience when i go in the Neuroscience
>>>>stacks, see
>>>>>all the disconnected stuff, know that it's all connectable, but
>>>>'there's no
>>>>>use' in working to connect anything in it... because no one will
>>>>listen, or
>>>>>understand, anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>ken collins
>>>>>>>>>>flefever wrote in message <7n8os6$l7o at dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>...
>>>>>>>>>>>>Well, when DID you say the hippocampus was not for "storeing"
>>>>memories
>>>>>>and everybody else was saying it was. Was it in 1986? Before
>>1986?
>>>>>>Can you ESTIMATE the date? What was the EARLIEST possible date?
>>>>(i.e.
>>>>>>when did you first start saying or writing this stuff?) How much
>>>>>>longer DID everybody else persist in saying the hippocampus was for
>>>>>>"storeing" memories? (can you name one or two of these people?)
>>>>>>>>>>>>F. LeFever
>>>>>>>>>>>>In <euMeIXA1#GA.274 at cpmsnbbsa02> "Ken Collins"
>><KPaulC at email.msn.com>
>>>>>>writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>beyond AoK, which was first circulated in 1986, i don't care to
>>look
>>>>>>through
>>>>>>>my papers, Frank. I've preserved everything... anyone who wants to
>>>>>>look can
>>>>>>>see for themselves how the concepts developed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>i am certain that, when i started circulating AoK, it was as i
>>>>stated
>>>>>>in the
>>>>>>>prior msg... to get folks in Neuroscience thinking-straight with
>>>>>>respect to
>>>>>>>it was one of the biggest battles i had to fight.... one doesn't
>>>>>>easily
>>>>>>>"forget" such, and the scars accumulated while doing it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ken collins
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>F. Frank LeFever wrote in message
>>>>>><7n677k$5j8 at dfw-ixnews16.ix.netcom.com>...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Just what was the date when you said the hippocampus doesn't
>>store
>>>>>>>>memories and everybody else said it did? (The theoretical
>>>>statements
>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>"the others" are publicly documented and dated; are yours?)
>>>>>>>>[...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
