Dan Fake wrote in message <7mq7ok$2i8$1 at bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>...
>Ken Collins wrote in message ...
>>Dan Fake wrote in message <7mpvjm$4o4$1 at bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>...
>>>>[...]
>>>>>Is there a god or gods? Why are it/they silent and invisible?
>>>>why are folks 'blind' to the visibility?
>>Please explain. I can't see it/them/her/him/thing/thingies called
>god or gods - by what definition are you referring to?
guess i will discuss Religion after all... perhaps i'm just a fish?
as they say, "it's a long story", Mr. Fake.
i'm a trying-to-be-devout-but-most-often-failing Roman Catholic. if you want
me to go on and on about substantiated miracles, i will, but since i'm
reading a book about the life of Sgt. Alvin C. York (by John Perry; i
reccommend this book to all), i'll discuss things in terms of his personal
experience.
his Father died when Mr. York was young. As is common when such occurs in a
young man's life, Mr. York "went wild" for some years. But due to the
not-giving-up-ness of his Mother, Mr. York found Christ, and found Him
solidly.
WWI came along, and Mr. York got his draft notice. because he'd totally
accepted the 6th Commandment, Mr. York determined to be a concientious
objector, but after agonizing over all that was involved, prayed, expressed
his Faith in God, and his Faith that as long as he was True to his Belief,
God would see him through, and agreed to serve as a combat infantryman.
to cut to the chase, Cpl. York's squad, having come under withering machine
gun fire, was pinned down, all NCO's except Cpl. York dead.
Although the machine gun fire was so dense that, after the battle, a canteen
was found with 18 bullet holes through it, and the ground itself looked like
it had been prepared for a planting, Cpl. York made his way to a flanking
position unscratched, and he proceeded to single-handedly capture the
remnants of a whole battalion... 132 men in all... depending on who's count
is considered, 28-35 machine guns were counted as having been removed from
the battle by Cpl. York's action.
i don't know if you've ever seen a machine gun's work, Mr. Fake, but it's a
fairly difficult thing to do to stay out of their harm's way.
Cpl. York was a crack shot, but even his superior officers, at first, did
not believe that he'd done what he'd done... 'respect' for the savagery of
machine guns and all.
when asked how he was able to do what he'd done, Cpl. York answered simply,
that he'd put his Faith in God, and Believed that he'd not be harmed as long
as he was True to his Faith.
what's my point?
i See the Hand of God in Cpl. York's survival where even his superior
officers knew no man should've been able to survive.
i don't offer Cpl. (Sgt.) York's experience as 'proof' of God's existence,
but that's not my point.
my point is that, since there's no "material" explanation for how Cpl. York
survived... as the ground, and the canteen, demonstrated, the Physics of
machine-gun fire is straight forward... there's plenty of 'room' in Cpl.
York's experience to see the Hand of God... and there's nothing that Science
can do to controvert such.
miracles are myriad. if one doesn't see them, it's because one has closed
one's eyes to them.
>Certainly, you accept that all life on earth is a natural process which
>evolved over billions of years, don't you?
i do accept the evidence for Evolution as extremely-strong... it's just that
Evolution and Creation are not mutually exclusive. i See God Creating
Humanity, still. yes, i Believe it is crucial that Jesus died for our sins
thus opening Salvation to Humanity. but in addition to such, i See, clearly,
that, through Christ's Example, the behavior of humans was changed, and is
still being changed, in the direction of peace. therefore, it's clear that
Jesus directed Evolutionary dynamics.
or would you care to offer a different explanation?
Was it Science, and not Jesus, that altered evolutionary dynamics? the trend
toward peace is 'just' the product of human intellectual endeavor?
if so, how does one 'separate-out' the historic role of Jesus? although many
attempt to do so, such cannot be accomplished, unless one ignores Truth. but
if one ignores Truth, everyone who 'just' wants to Honor Truth, must
distrust everything that person who ignores Truth proposes.
isn't it so?
yes.
it's a simple matter of priority... Scientific priority, if you wish.
one can 'ignore' Jesus, as is popular, as a matter of information-processing
'convenience' [especially with respect to procuring funding] in Science,
but doing so doesn't alter the reality.
>Certainly you accept the concept
>of dramatic changes to the earth environment yielding major and
>dramatic changes in life forms and mass extinctions on rather
>regular intervals in the history of our planet, don't you?
exactly... see above, re. Jesus :-)
>You were saying . . .
i was saying what i said.
>>>> Why is there so much suffering in the world?
all of the great suffering that exists is traceable to humanity's choosing
to be inhumane.
what about natural disasters?
do you want Creation/Evolution or not? if there is to be Creation/Evolution,
there must be a dynamic empowering of the material universe.
beyond this, if folks'd chosen to devote their efforts to overcoming such,
it could've been the case, centuries ago, that all natural disasters
could've been minimized.
the recent slaughter in Kosovo is a case in point... the conflict occurred
be-cause understanding was actively withheld from folks.
it's the same with respect to hurricanes, tornados, volcanos, earth quakes,
etc. ...it's old long since that folks know what they must do to stay out of
such things' harms' ways... but folks choose to remain in their harms' ways.
will is free.
that will is free is a great Gift. it's a pity that the great Gift has been
put to such little use.
>>>>because folks'd rather murder one another... murder their own Children...
>>than do the work required to understand... absent such work, folks inflict
>>suffering upon one another. (note, such also applies with respect to
natural
>>disasters, with respect to which, we could all become increasingly more
safe
>>if it weren't the case that folks opt for mere convenience in planning and
>>manufacturing.
>>So, murder, you're saying, is beyond it/them/her/him/thing/thingies (your
>god's or gods') ability or desire to stop.
there can be a static, no-empowering dynamic, non-Evolutionary universe, or
there can be Free Will. the two are mutually-exclusive.
the best possible world is one in which Free Will is maximized. it's only in
such a world that Hope can exist... it's only in such a world that Creation
can continue. it's only in such a world that humans can become more than
they are. think of the True Miracle inherent in such. guess what? this's the
world we have. [i'll gladly discuss further in-person.]
>Natural disasters, you're saying,
>are beyond it/them/her/him/thing/thingies (your god's or gods') ability or
>desire to stop. Things you left off: disease, suffering, pain, insanity,
>plagues, a supposed hell or oblivion for most of humankind, basically,
>every downside of human and animal existence, is beyond it/them/her/
>him/thing/thingies (your god's or gods') ability or desire to stop.
without all of such, all that'd be left is a static world in which choice
[Free Will] would be non-existent... what would be the point of such
'existence'... might as well be a player piano.
you know, i understand that you're 'just' fishin'... it hurts some that you
choose to subject me to such, when i've given my life in service to you and
you won't even allow me an opportunity to present the work i've done to you
in a way where there's some small hance that it can be discussed
sufficiently to actually achieve communication... it hurts some...
...but what hurst more is to see you, despite all you've been Given,
choosing to be a 'player-piano'... try to imagine the agony of Hell
itself... that's close to what i experience when i see a fellow human
tossing out his Free Will.
>Thanks for clearing that up for us, the fact it/them/her/him/thing/thingies
>(your god or gods) is/are = nothing or nature or it/them/her/him/thing/
>thingies (your god or gods) is an immoral and reprehensible creature
>or creatures unworthy of worship and certainly a creature or creatures
>any moral human should be ashamed of and fearful of spending eternity
>with, eh?
you know not 'my' God.
>>>Why must blind faith/belief be the cornerstone of merit by which an
>>> eternal fate is decided?
i see God Being much bigger than some of the narrow definitions that are
'imposed' upon Him by folks. i see God in everything.
what about in murderers? each one of us is born an innocent Infant. through
societal choice, some Infants have innocence taken from them.
it all comes down to choice... we are Given wonders, but we have to choose
to live them. to do so requires Faith that doesn't 'restrict' God from our
beings... this's Faith maximized. anything less than this throws out some of
the wonders embued within us. minimize Faith and one simultaneously
minimizes Hope... the rationale for 'reaching'... don't 'reach', fail to
attain.
'blaming God' is a cop-out that's born of short-term, short-sighted,
short-shrifted information-processing 'convenience'... through choice...
through the exercise of Free Will... choose, then 'blame God' for your
choice? :-)
>>there's no 'must' involved. that it's been the case hase everything to do
>>with prejudice toward ignorant speculation having been perpetuated... it's
>>not only been science that's failed to "move toward" understanding in
favor
>>of opting for mere information-processing 'convenience'.
>>So, we stopped advancing as a species when the christ myth took hold
study Honestly, and you'll see you've got it backward.
> and
>since the advance of science and knowledge (said advance despite the worst
>efforts of the christians in power in Europe during the dark ages),
then there's J. R. Oppenheimer's view [that led to his being trashed by the
'U. S. A.']: "In some sort of crude sense which no vulgarity, no humor, no
overstatement can quite extinguish, the physicists have known sin; and this
is knowledge which they cannot lose." [_Thought for Today_, 16Jul99]
and, BTW, i find invocations of Gallileo, et. all., to be particularly
ridiculous in light of my own experience.
>we're
>merely becoming better at processing information but no closer to truth?
that's your opinion, not mine... i've got a complete 'map' of Truth. it's
the one-way flow of energy from order to disorder that is what's described
by 2nd Thermo (wdb2t)... guess what? there's plenty of 'room' for God
in-there.
>I strongly disagree.
good. so do i.
>Religious myth yields ignorance and fear.
ignorance is ignorance... 'the Beast' which preys upon us all... the vast
majority of it has nothing at all to do with 'religion'.
>Advances of
>science and efforts to find truth in this life yields acceptance of reality
and
>efforts to deal with life from a basis of logic and reason and
responsibility.
'just' as God Created us to be :-)
"But though you are master of might, you judge with clemency,
and with much lenience you govern us;
for power, whenever you will, attends you.
And you taught your people, by these deeds,
that those who are just must be kind;
and you gave your children good ground for hope
that you would permit repentance for their sins." [Book of Wisdom 12:16-19,
i believe]
it's not so 'simple' as you propose it to be, Mr. Fake.
cheers, ken collins
ken collins
