I stand on what I posted. K. P. Collins
Stephan Anagnostaras wrote:
> Wow Frank you have a lot of patience with this guy. Maybe you should bring
> him in for some treatment, I think he could really use it :)
>> In article <7304ug$h5d at sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, flefever at ix.netcom.com(F.
> Frank LeFever) wrote:
>> > It is obvious that this fellow is off on a trip of his own, so there
> > would be little point in replying to him; however, there is the danger
> > that someone not sophisticated enough to discount his comments might be
> > led to reject a treatment that could be life-saving.
> >
> > See comments below:
> >
> >
> > In <3650E7E9.57FC5323 at pop3.concentric.net> kkollins at pop3.concentric.net> > writes:
> > >
> > >"Good"-Grief, Frank, you "embarrass" me :-)
> > >
> > >F. Frank LeFever wrote:
> > >
> > >> Again, kkollins pontificates from his position of authority based on
> > no
> > >> more than popular fiction (e.g. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest).
> > Is
> > >> your response a joke or are you really ignorant of the practice of
> > >> unilateral ECT?
> > >
> > >Without Physically-separating the hemispheres, there's nothing
> > "unilateral"
> > >that occurs in the nervous system... yes, one can try to "steer" such,
> > but
> > >what do you think the cortical targets of the commisural fibers do?
> > >..."opt-out?
> >
> > First, a general observation: we have often seen (in this newsgroup)
> > people who know a little bit about something (often scattered and
> > poorly-undertood terms and facts) assume that others know even less,
> > adolescent "big insights" proclaimed naively (to others who had and
> > worked through such "insights" long ago) as if it were a private
> > revelation, etc., etc.
> >
> > In this particular case, kkollins assumes that someone who has been
> > studying brain function for several decades, has done research at the
> > physiological/anatomical level as well as at the cognitive/behavioral
> > level as a (doctoral level) clinical and experimental neuropsychologist
> > has not done even as much reading as he has about interhemispheric
> > relations. Naive, arrogant, presumptious!
> >
> > Besides a pretty good general professional knowledge of not oonly the
> > corpus callosum but also the anterior commissure, posterior commissure,
> > and hippocampal commissure (to say nothing of indirect influences via
> > the diencephalon), there are several more "personal" experiences to
> > keep me alert to interhemispheric relationships.
> >
> > For ex., about 35 years ago, in preparation for research with a recent
> > post-doc from Sperry's lab (a "classmate" of Gazzaniga's), I was
> > practicing corpus callosum section and unilateral hippocampal excisions
> > in (dead) cat heads--project fell through when NYU delayed too long in
> > buying cages for LIVE cats.
> >
> > For ex., about 18-20 years ago, one of my patients with MS, a
> > right-hander, switched to the left hand to do the Block Design (WAIS).
> > Having seen demonstrations of the superiority of left-hand Block Design
> > performances by split-brain patients (compared to right-hand), I had
> > the sudden insight that inasmuch as the corpus callosum is the largest
> > myelinated stucture in the brain, MS patients may have a partial
> > disconnection syndrome--unfortunately, did not write this up, but
> > others have indeed demontrated that this is true.
> >
> > For ex., sometime in the past 20-30 years, a former student of mine
> > (Stanley Glick) found that the CC was impoortant in neurotransmitter
> > balance across the hemispheres--after it was cut, prior DA asymmetries
> > increased and ACh asymmetries developed.
> >
> > About 15 years ago, using a computer-driven visual display I built
> > (LEDs in a plexiglass dome) I was able to replicate Brend Milner's
> > finding of a slight latency difference between ipsilateral and
> > contralateral reaction times in a patient with callosal agenesis (about
> > the same order of magnitude as she found, if I recall correctly).
> >
> > More recently (5-6 yrs?), a former colleague, Robert Sloviter,
> > described long inhibitory fibers from each hippocampus to the other (I
> > heard it from the horse's mouth).
> >
> > ACCOORDINGLY, you may be sure I did not forget callosal transmission
> > when I wrote about unilateral vs. bilateral ECT. The difference
> > between kkollins inferences and mine lies in the fact that I know
> > something about ECT and he apparently does not.
> >
> > There have been and coontinue to be many studies comparing unilateral
> > and bilateral ECT. Hormonal responses, clinical outcomes, cognitive
> > effects have been compared (unilateral vs. bilateral).
> >
> > Yes, of course seizure propagation from right to left cortex is to be
> > expected, but the latest EEG evidence I know of shows concordance
> > mainly in the froontal lobes (which is the preferred target for
> > neurophysiological changes, inasmuch as functional imaging studies show
> > them to be most important), but much less between posterior areas.
> > Indeed, it has been suggested that the decreased cognitive side-effects
> > (transient and mild, n.b.) with unilateral ECT is due to the
> > procedure's eliciting less seizure activity in left temporal (and
> > occipital) areas.
> >
> >
> > - - - - - - -(snip) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --
> >
> >
> >
> > >> Far from being analoguous to pummeling (with implications
> > >> of physical abuse and pain), it is nowadays undertaken with muscle
> > >> relaxants (to avoid injury during seizure) and sedatives (to
> > minimize
> > >> anxiety).
> >
> > To address his "cattle-prod" fantasy directly: cattle-prods are used to
> > cause pain, and thereby alter behavior--inhibiting the punished
> > behavior, eliciting behavior to avoid pain, etc. ECT is administered
> > in such a way as to avoid pain and anxiety.
> >
> > The goal is not to punish or frighten or distract the patient, but to
> > alter brain physiology. Modified procedures are under study (e.g.
> > brief pulses rather than long trains, e.g. magnetic stimulation
> > targeted to specific brain areas) to do this more precisely and with
> > fewer undesirable side effects.
> >
> >
> > - - - - - - -(snip) - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> >
> >
> >
> > >"Depression" is an engineered-in, fully-functional mechanism upon
> > which
> > >Survival depends.
> > >
> >
> > So is activation of the HPA axis by various stressors; but unregulated
> > activation can be harmful to the individual. Perhaps kkollins has in
> > mind "Survival of the Fittest" (as crudely construed by those who don't
> > really understand Darwin)? Racial improvement via individual suicide?
> >
> >
> > >> still less, "punishment" as those
> > >> who ignorantly think of it as a "cattle-prod" procedure applied to
> > the
> > >> head might assert.
> > >
> > >It's hardly distinguishable from a "cattle-prod to the head"... and
> > just
> > >about as "effective" :-)
> > >
> >
> > (v. my counter argument above. Please note kkollins has read no
> > efficacy studies or has misunderstood any that he has read, judging by
> > this assertion)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >> I can only hope your unfounded
> > >
> > >The above is Libel... all my work is thoroughly-Verified (Frankly,
> > Frank,
> > >so far, it seems you're far-"better" at Libel than you are at
> > >Neuroscience.)
> > >
> >
> >
> > Apparently his knowledge of the law is at the same level as his
> > knowledge of neuroscience.
> >
> >
> > I'll repeat:
> >
> > I can only hope that his unfounded
> > >> but confident assertions do not
> > >> discourage someone from taking advantage of a therapy which DOES
> > work
> > >> for many depressives who still suffer and do not respond well to any
> > >> medication.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > >I will =Gladly= give them the Understanding that can Lift them Up out
> > of
> > >their Sorrow... if Neuroscience ever desides to stop Withholding the
> > >Understanding from them.
> > >
> >
> > What is he waiting for--invitation from the Nobel community? Who is
> > withholding--kkollins? Neurooscience??
> >
> > The reast of this pathetic exchange follows.
> >
> > F. Frank LeFever, Ph.D.
> > New York Neuropsychology Group
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >> Your lack of intellectual honesty and humility is especially immoral
> > in
> > >> these life and death matters. (Yes, life and death; ever hear of
> > >> depressed patients committing suicide?)
> > >
> > >Get thee before a mirror.
> > >
> > >> Your putting "depression" in quotes suggests you do not take it
> > >> seriously as a medical condition--"everybody feels bad sometimes;
> > why
> > >> don't they just pull themselves together? get a hobby or something
> > to
> > >> distract thenmselves". Is that your level of understanding? That is
> > >> disgusting.
> > >
> > >I'll tell you what's disgusting, Mr. Frank, Ignorance "in
> > high-places". K.
> > >P. Collins
> > >
