Wow Frank you have a lot of patience with this guy. Maybe you should bring
him in for some treatment, I think he could really use it :)
In article <7304ug$h5d at sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, flefever at ix.netcom.com(F.
Frank LeFever) wrote:
> It is obvious that this fellow is off on a trip of his own, so there
> would be little point in replying to him; however, there is the danger
> that someone not sophisticated enough to discount his comments might be
> led to reject a treatment that could be life-saving.
>> See comments below:
>>> In <3650E7E9.57FC5323 at pop3.concentric.net> kkollins at pop3.concentric.net> writes:
> >
> >"Good"-Grief, Frank, you "embarrass" me :-)
> >
> >F. Frank LeFever wrote:
> >
> >> Again, kkollins pontificates from his position of authority based on
> no
> >> more than popular fiction (e.g. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest).
> Is
> >> your response a joke or are you really ignorant of the practice of
> >> unilateral ECT?
> >
> >Without Physically-separating the hemispheres, there's nothing
> "unilateral"
> >that occurs in the nervous system... yes, one can try to "steer" such,
> but
> >what do you think the cortical targets of the commisural fibers do?
> >..."opt-out?
>> First, a general observation: we have often seen (in this newsgroup)
> people who know a little bit about something (often scattered and
> poorly-undertood terms and facts) assume that others know even less,
> adolescent "big insights" proclaimed naively (to others who had and
> worked through such "insights" long ago) as if it were a private
> revelation, etc., etc.
>> In this particular case, kkollins assumes that someone who has been
> studying brain function for several decades, has done research at the
> physiological/anatomical level as well as at the cognitive/behavioral
> level as a (doctoral level) clinical and experimental neuropsychologist
> has not done even as much reading as he has about interhemispheric
> relations. Naive, arrogant, presumptious!
>> Besides a pretty good general professional knowledge of not oonly the
> corpus callosum but also the anterior commissure, posterior commissure,
> and hippocampal commissure (to say nothing of indirect influences via
> the diencephalon), there are several more "personal" experiences to
> keep me alert to interhemispheric relationships.
>> For ex., about 35 years ago, in preparation for research with a recent
> post-doc from Sperry's lab (a "classmate" of Gazzaniga's), I was
> practicing corpus callosum section and unilateral hippocampal excisions
> in (dead) cat heads--project fell through when NYU delayed too long in
> buying cages for LIVE cats.
>> For ex., about 18-20 years ago, one of my patients with MS, a
> right-hander, switched to the left hand to do the Block Design (WAIS).
> Having seen demonstrations of the superiority of left-hand Block Design
> performances by split-brain patients (compared to right-hand), I had
> the sudden insight that inasmuch as the corpus callosum is the largest
> myelinated stucture in the brain, MS patients may have a partial
> disconnection syndrome--unfortunately, did not write this up, but
> others have indeed demontrated that this is true.
>> For ex., sometime in the past 20-30 years, a former student of mine
> (Stanley Glick) found that the CC was impoortant in neurotransmitter
> balance across the hemispheres--after it was cut, prior DA asymmetries
> increased and ACh asymmetries developed.
>> About 15 years ago, using a computer-driven visual display I built
> (LEDs in a plexiglass dome) I was able to replicate Brend Milner's
> finding of a slight latency difference between ipsilateral and
> contralateral reaction times in a patient with callosal agenesis (about
> the same order of magnitude as she found, if I recall correctly).
>> More recently (5-6 yrs?), a former colleague, Robert Sloviter,
> described long inhibitory fibers from each hippocampus to the other (I
> heard it from the horse's mouth).
>> ACCOORDINGLY, you may be sure I did not forget callosal transmission
> when I wrote about unilateral vs. bilateral ECT. The difference
> between kkollins inferences and mine lies in the fact that I know
> something about ECT and he apparently does not.
>> There have been and coontinue to be many studies comparing unilateral
> and bilateral ECT. Hormonal responses, clinical outcomes, cognitive
> effects have been compared (unilateral vs. bilateral).
>> Yes, of course seizure propagation from right to left cortex is to be
> expected, but the latest EEG evidence I know of shows concordance
> mainly in the froontal lobes (which is the preferred target for
> neurophysiological changes, inasmuch as functional imaging studies show
> them to be most important), but much less between posterior areas.
> Indeed, it has been suggested that the decreased cognitive side-effects
> (transient and mild, n.b.) with unilateral ECT is due to the
> procedure's eliciting less seizure activity in left temporal (and
> occipital) areas.
>>> - - - - - - -(snip) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --
>>>> >> Far from being analoguous to pummeling (with implications
> >> of physical abuse and pain), it is nowadays undertaken with muscle
> >> relaxants (to avoid injury during seizure) and sedatives (to
> minimize
> >> anxiety).
>> To address his "cattle-prod" fantasy directly: cattle-prods are used to
> cause pain, and thereby alter behavior--inhibiting the punished
> behavior, eliciting behavior to avoid pain, etc. ECT is administered
> in such a way as to avoid pain and anxiety.
>> The goal is not to punish or frighten or distract the patient, but to
> alter brain physiology. Modified procedures are under study (e.g.
> brief pulses rather than long trains, e.g. magnetic stimulation
> targeted to specific brain areas) to do this more precisely and with
> fewer undesirable side effects.
>>> - - - - - - -(snip) - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>>>> >"Depression" is an engineered-in, fully-functional mechanism upon
> which
> >Survival depends.
> >
>> So is activation of the HPA axis by various stressors; but unregulated
> activation can be harmful to the individual. Perhaps kkollins has in
> mind "Survival of the Fittest" (as crudely construed by those who don't
> really understand Darwin)? Racial improvement via individual suicide?
>>> >> still less, "punishment" as those
> >> who ignorantly think of it as a "cattle-prod" procedure applied to
> the
> >> head might assert.
> >
> >It's hardly distinguishable from a "cattle-prod to the head"... and
> just
> >about as "effective" :-)
> >
>> (v. my counter argument above. Please note kkollins has read no
> efficacy studies or has misunderstood any that he has read, judging by
> this assertion)
>>>>> >> I can only hope your unfounded
> >
> >The above is Libel... all my work is thoroughly-Verified (Frankly,
> Frank,
> >so far, it seems you're far-"better" at Libel than you are at
> >Neuroscience.)
> >
>>> Apparently his knowledge of the law is at the same level as his
> knowledge of neuroscience.
>>> I'll repeat:
>> I can only hope that his unfounded
> >> but confident assertions do not
> >> discourage someone from taking advantage of a therapy which DOES
> work
> >> for many depressives who still suffer and do not respond well to any
> >> medication.
> >
>>>> >I will =Gladly= give them the Understanding that can Lift them Up out
> of
> >their Sorrow... if Neuroscience ever desides to stop Withholding the
> >Understanding from them.
> >
>> What is he waiting for--invitation from the Nobel community? Who is
> withholding--kkollins? Neurooscience??
>> The reast of this pathetic exchange follows.
>> F. Frank LeFever, Ph.D.
> New York Neuropsychology Group
>>>>>>> >> Your lack of intellectual honesty and humility is especially immoral
> in
> >> these life and death matters. (Yes, life and death; ever hear of
> >> depressed patients committing suicide?)
> >
> >Get thee before a mirror.
> >
> >> Your putting "depression" in quotes suggests you do not take it
> >> seriously as a medical condition--"everybody feels bad sometimes;
> why
> >> don't they just pull themselves together? get a hobby or something
> to
> >> distract thenmselves". Is that your level of understanding? That is
> >> disgusting.
> >
> >I'll tell you what's disgusting, Mr. Frank, Ignorance "in
> high-places". K.
> >P. Collins
> >
