Beyond Cloning

Karl Roberts kr1 at PGSTUMAIL.PG.CC.MD.US
Wed Feb 26 07:43:37 EST 1997

Funny.  Maybe you should send this to "our hero".

On 26 Feb 1997, Modem wrote:

> AT>In article <01bc22aa$e513dc40$a8b4aec7 at default>, "Rad"
> AT><gconrad at sprynet.com> wrote:
> AT>  :Here's how it might work: 
> AT>  :
> AT>  :A special breed of pig is created with a nine month gestation period and 
> AT>  :wide vaginal opening.
> AT>Wow. Even with the limited capacity of ASCII text, I can almost hear you
> AT>panting at the notion.
> AT>  :This pig would also be supplied with human
> AT>  :mitochondrial DNA (if needed). Eggs from these pigs would be removed and
> AT>  :de-nucleated. A single sperm each from two prime Aryan males is injected
> AT>  :into each egg.
> AT>Why two "Aryan" males? This seems to be a clear and unequivocal statement
> AT>that "Aryan" women are superfluous, and that a method of reproduction that
> AT>substitutes sows for women is desirable. Sit back on the couch and tell me
> AT>about all of these unresolved issues you have with your mother.
> AT>More to the point, the experiment in Scotland implanted the DNA from one
> AT>individual into a de-nucleated (if that's the right term) egg. No method to
> AT>combine two sperm into one individual exists, and I doubt that such a thing
> AT>has been contemplated; the old-fashioned method of combining sperm and egg
> AT>(or the newfangled method of doing same in a test tube) to produce
> AT>heterogeneous offspring seems to work pretty well, unless you have some
> AT>deep-seeded need to remove women from the reproductive process.
> AT>Your dismissal of women rejects even their role as mothers, and strikes me
> AT>as pathological. It seems to me that there's a lot going on in your head
> AT>that you refuse to admit to yourself.
> AT>  :The eggs are then implanted in the pig. Nine months later,
> AT>  :the pig gives birth to a dozen or so healthy Aryans.
> AT>Having proven himself to be swine metaphorically, this one "Aryan" would
> AT>like to sire the offspring of swine literally. I don't have the intuition
> AT>nor the training to even begin to contemplate this notion more deeply. I'll
> AT>just suggest that the author seek long-term, preferrably inpatient,
> AT>professional help.
> AT>  :Of course, these sperm must be sorted to increase the number of X sperm v
> AT>  :Y sperm, or  males will outnumber females by 2:1 as shown:
> AT>  :
> AT>  :XX   Female
> AT>  :XY   Male
> AT>  :YX   Male
> AT>  :YY   Nonviable
> AT>You are assuming that a YY embryo would be non-viable. There are no data
> AT>with YY embryos, a patently impossible notion by conventional means, to
> AT>suggest this conclusion. YY could well produce viable but sterile
> AT>individuals, as is the case with XYY or XXY mutations already observed. 
> AT>  :Or perhaps the individual sperm can be precisely sorted from the beginnin
> AT>  :giving the desired male/female ratio and avoiding the YYs altogether.
> AT>Or perhaps we could screen DNA with a finer-toothed comb, to weed out
> AT>obvious cases of mental deficiency. I understand why you do not dwell on
> AT>this thought. And why screen out the YYs? You could breed a race of
> AT>supermen, completely devoid of any genetic traces of femaleness. That seems
> AT>to be your point.
> AT>  :An interesting aspect of this procedure, for all you feminists out there,
> AT>  :is that it requires no human females at all.
> AT>That is not just a single aspect, it is the sole defining characteristic of
> AT>this approach. There is no reason to attempt to create a human being from
> AT>two sperm unless you deliberately set out to eliminate women from the
> AT>process of procreation. It appears that you would prefer to have your
> AT>children birthed by sows than by women, and that you see your ideal
> AT>reproductive partner as another man. You need help.
> AT>  :Though they would certainly be employed in the raising of these new Aryan
> AT>Why? Since you have dismissed the role of women in the birthing of
> AT>children, why concede that they have a role in child-rearing? A
> AT>genetically-engineered dog (think of Romulus and Remus, since the Roman
> AT>mythos apparently has a particular appeal for you) could suckle your little
> AT>genetic monstrosities, and you could abort (or kill post-partum) any
> AT>children who failed to display the proper dangly bits. With enough science,
> AT>you could create an entire species without females.
> AT>Since you have relegated procreation to the meeting of two sperm, I can
> AT>only assume that the men in your little Utopia would lead lives of
> AT>homosexuality or chastity. Which is it? Or would you keep women around (and
> AT>sterilize them, I assume, since you've forwarded the two-sperm method of
> AT>reproduction) as sexual playthings?
> AT>I always suspected that Nazis were closet leather-boys (those ever-so-butch
> AT>SS uniforms would be the hit of any gay bar on leather night), but I have
> AT>never seen a more pervasive or purer misogyny, or a more convoluted effort
> AT>to dream of a society in which women are irrelevant.
> AT>  :Pure education in math, science and objective history would be stressed
> AT>  :as well as proper English. We might even resurrect the Aryan religion. 
> AT>  :Hail Zeus! 
> AT>If you want to "resurrect" the "Aryan religion" (concocted by swarthy
> AT>little Mediterranean people), how would you explain to your little
> AT>Neo-Spartans all of the myths surrounding women and goddesses? You clearly
> AT>have no role for women beyond wet-nurses, so how would you explain to your
> AT>future stormtroopers that Hera (Juno) has a mind of her own in the myths?
> AT>Or will you leave out the bits about women being capable of thought?
> AT>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> AT>   "We were once so close to heaven, Peter came out and gave us medals 
> AT>   declaring us the nicest of the damned."      --They Might Be Giants
> AT>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> AT>Andy Walton * atticus at mindspring.com * http://www.mindspring.com/~atticus
> Dis-regarding the politics and eugenitics, the part about using 2 sperm
> is workable, at least with mice. It seems that the nucleus of a gamate
> cell isn't all that determined about which sex it is. And if you remove
> the original nucleus from an ova and replace it with that from a sperm
> the result behaves like any other ova.
> Presumably, the pig ova is required so the pig will be able to carry it.
> I think the pig would have to have some genetic modifications first,
> though.

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