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good climate

system at niuhep.physics.niu.edu system at niuhep.physics.niu.edu
Thu Jun 20 13:03:24 EST 1996


 dkat at psych1.psy.sunysb.edu (DK) writes:
>lhyatt at pegasus.unm.edu (laura a hyatt) wrote:
>
>>In this vein, I'd be interested in hearing what changes ought to be made 
>>not merely in the culture of science practice, but in science training 
>>(which, of course, inevitably leads to the culture of practice).  More 
>>than half of the women in my grad. program quit without their PhD's 
>>(sometimes getting terminal masters) For men, it's more like 1/3.  Having 
>>been to a women's college, the coed grad. school classroom was a big 
>>shocker; I wasn't used to being talked over, having my comments ignored 
>>by the group, then restated and applauded by others.  
>
>>What can we do to amend the atmosphere in grad school, which appears to 
>>be a pretty big filter itself, after the family/primary/high 
>>school/college filters have been survived?  
>
>>Eagerly awaiting responses.
>
>>Laura
>
>Yes!  This is where I think women have a serious disadvantage.

>Particularly the young women who are very much interested in being
>liked and approved of by the men and hesitant to be labeled a "bitch"

Whereas men often get brownie points for being aggressive.  But in
either case worrying too much about being liked is counter-productive.
Of course men are more likely to have been brought up to be 
"rugged individualists"

> How does my
>saying to a young woman that in twenty years she isn't going to fall
>over backwards to please someone going to help her now?  

Eh?  Telling a young woman that you think she is getting
walked over and that she needs to learn how to assert* herself if
she wants to be successful seems like a reasonable thing to do.
It might get her thinking, she might not like your telling her that
but it might just stick in her mind and a year or so down the road
(as opposed to 5 or 20 years down the road) she might figure it out.

*I can be quite aggressive in USENET arguements, I am very assertive
when somebody bigger than I steps on my toes.  
There is a very real difference. Aside from telling you 
to look in a dictionary I can't do much better to define that difference.

>I do not believe that you can change the institution or graduate
>school.  What can you do short of having female only colleges?  You
>cannot say males and females get equal speaking time or a recording
>will be kept and if you plagairize someone else's comments, you will
>be penalized!  

During the meeting: "Well, Gina, what do you think of Tom's spin
on your idea?" or "Excuse me, I was trying to listen to what
Tina was saying" (feel free to insert male names if they are being
steamrolled)
After the meeting: "You need to come up with stratigies for making
sure your ideas are acknowledged..."

>What very much needs to be done is to reach females in
>grade school on up and teach them that they are worthy on their own,
>not just as someones mate or daughter.  

I am very much in agreement with you here.

>One idea that might work is that at any group gathering if women are
>not being listened to, they might group together and discuss the
>issues amoung themselves.  

bad idea IMHO.

>I'll be you anything you like that the
>males in the group will then want to know what they are saying.  

I'm not so sure.

>If
>they are being talked over turn to one another and continue the
>discussion.   

Now this I can agree with.

>DK

Robert



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